Aircraft/Helo pilots vs Drone pilots

[R.Perry]

Was out at the local airport shooting the bull with some of the CFS pilots and local airport bums like myself. The subject of drones came up and I caught the drift pretty quick, most of the guys don’t like them. Yes I dared to ask why.

Well I figured the helo pilots out pretty quickly, job security in jeopardy, they can see drones taking over some of their work, and saving clients lots of money. The fire CFS guy do have a legitimate issue, there has been knuckleheads flying drones at a few of the forest fires and we all know that is a big no-no. One of the guys I know pretty well is also and old crop duster, his issue wasn’t so much job security as much as altitude, and a crop duster is definitely flying airspace used by drones. So if you see a guy dusting a field, please don’t decide to photograph or video him with a drone, if you do you will definitely make is day if you get in his way. When I told him they already have a drone built for crop dusting he was really surprised.

I know some of you guys on this forum are also fixed wing, and helo pilots. I us drone guys that are also fixed wing or helo pilots we need to enlighten other pilots to the advantages and dispel some of the miss conceptions.

The other side of is I believe that those of us that are commercial drone pilots need to be doing it right all the time or at least as much as possible so we don’t add fuel to the fire. I can see a day coming when if you own a drone, you will need some sort of license, not just license your drone, and that just might be a good thing for all of us.

 

[Jammer]

In my opinion the first thing we might want to think about is not calling commercial unmanned aerial vehicles "drones".
We are in the UAS Industry. A self driving car is a "drone"

 

[BigAl07]

In my opinion the first thing we might want to think about is not calling commercial unmanned aerial vehicles "drones".
We are in the UAS Industry. A self driving car is a "drone"

Unfortunately that fight was lost a LONG time ago. You're more than welcome to spend your time and efforts trying to correct every Tom, Richard, and Harry but unfortunately Drone is a buzz word and here to stay.

When we teach and when we talk with other "industry professionals" we use sUAS and such but if you use that term talking to John Q. Public your next 3 minutes is going to be explaining what that is and why you're swimming upstream knowing it's a DAM you're going against.

 

[BryanD]

unfortunately, I have to agree with you. I much prefer sUAS but reluctantly use drones because I am too lazy to swim upstream.

 

[flockshot]

Yes, those guys at the airport (airport bum myself) have some legitimate concerns about airspace sharing with drones, and job security. I saw a robot about a week ago that was capable of flipping hamburgers. Nobody is immune to technology.

I am comfortable with the term drone. and use it all the time. Most people don't know what a UAS is, but they all know what a drone is. No sense beating around the bush. Customers are interested in results. If you give them results that impact their business in a positive way, they won't care what you call your camera.

I don't expect everyone to like drones. Heck, we have drone pilots on this site that can't stand to have a helicopter fly over their house at 500 feet. Some people just hate anything they are not involved it. That isn't going to change, and drones will always be hated by some (perhaps even most). That is their problem, not mine.

Whatever people think of my craft, they will love my photos and videos. I guarantee it.

 

[Jammer]

If we can't teach people to change the name of the aircraft how are we ever going to change their minds....

 

[Moosewax]

If we can't teach people to change the name of the aircraft how are we ever going to change their minds....

Personally I prefer RPAS (remotely piloted aircraft system). It makes more sense, the FAA uses the term remote pilots, and it is the ICAO standard term.

But I consider my audience, goals etc when using the term drone versus UAS.

Unmanned just sounds like someone got their nuts cut off and turned into an eunuch.

 

[Jammer]

Personally I prefer RPAS (remotely piloted aircraft system). It makes more sense, the FAA uses the term remote pilots, and it is the ICAO standard term.

But I consider my audience, goals etc when using the term drone versus UAS.

Unmanned just sounds like someone got their nuts cut off and turned into an eunuch.

Hahaha.... when I used the term RPA someone thought I was talking about a TV show......

 

[R.Perry]

Some people refer for an aircraft as a plane, pilots will many times refer to it by the aircraft name. If using UAS makes one feel more "professional" then use it. Many times the only difference between a professional and an amateur is the professional gets paid.
I can remember a day when pilots had to actually fly their aircraft, long before GPS, and autonomous flights. Half the time I don't fly my drone, Drone Deploy will do the mapping while I drink my coffee and watch it, Litchi will fly to preset locations and do my panos. Then once in a while I get to do elevation shoots and I actually get to fly it.
To me, there is no rocket science in flying these things, and the skill required is minimal to say the least. To me, I could care less what it's called, I make some good bucks with it, and enjoy doing it.

 

[Moosewax]

Some people refer for an aircraft as a plane, pilots will many times refer to it by the aircraft name. If using UAS makes one feel more "professional" then use it. Many times the only difference between a professional and an amateur is the professional gets paid.
I can remember a day when pilots had to actually fly their aircraft, long before GPS, and autonomous flights. Half the time I don't fly my drone, Drone Deploy will do the mapping while I drink my coffee and watch it, Litchi will fly to preset locations and do my panos. Then once in a while I get to do elevation shoots and I actually get to fly it.
To me, there is no rocket science in flying these things, and the skill required is minimal to say the least. To me, I could care less what it's called, I make some good bucks with it, and enjoy doing it.

The skill is not minimal in my opinion. plenty of ways for someone to screw up their data collection with a drone.

Plus there is a big difference between mapping say 20 acres versus 2000 acres and doing it proficiently, especially if there are large elevation changes in the terrain.

It's "easy" until your drone ends up in the dirt in pieces or someone fillets their fingers on spinning props.

 

[R.Perry]

The skill is not minimal in my opinion. plenty of ways for someone to screw up their data collection with a drone.

Plus there is a big difference between mapping say 20 acres versus 2000 acres and doing it proficiently, especially if there are large elevation changes in the terrain.

It's "easy" until your drone ends up in the dirt in pieces or someone fillets their fingers on spinning props.

I'll apologize to all who may have taken offense to my comments, they weren't meant to minimize anyone's work. The only difference between mapping 20 or 2000 acres is the number of batteries it will take. I currently map 145 acres, with minimal elevation changes. takes two sets of batteries on in Inspire 2, and two cups of coffee. I mapped 90 acres with a 400 foot elevation change, that did take a little planning, but again not too involved.

The danger in carving someone up with the props is one of the reasons we don't fly over people, or in close proximity to people not involved in the flight. I don't even let the drone get close to me during landing or takeoff for the above reasons.

Lets face it, how long did it take to get the hang of flying your first drone. I don't know about others but it took me about an hour to get really comfortable with it.

Now I have a question. If your drone is doing mapping and takes off on it's own, and doesn't respond to return to home as a last resort, and someone gets injured. Who's fault is it?

 

[Jammer]

I'll apologize to all who may have taken offense to my comments, they weren't meant to minimize anyone's work. The only difference between mapping 20 or 2000 acres is the number of batteries it will take. I currently map 145 acres, with minimal elevation changes. takes two sets of batteries on in Inspire 2, and two cups of coffee. I mapped 90 acres with a 400 foot elevation change, that did take a little planning, but again not too involved.

The

Now I have a question. If your drone is doing mapping and takes off on it's own, and doesn't respond to return to home as a last resort, and someone gets injured. Who's fault is it?

That’s the wrong question.
The right question is “How did it happen”?

 

[R.Perry]

That’s the wrong question.
The right question is “How did it happen”?

Good question, but since I"m not a computer or drone engineer to me autonomous flight is FM to me, (FM - freaking magic). I lost control of mine over some construction buildings that were a few hundred yards away. After doing a pano it just hovered in the same location. I drove over and once I got close I regained control. My transmitter was fully charged. But the offices had several high powered routers, same frequency. So why in the world are drones using the same frequency as routers?
When I was in the Navy many years ago we had some early ECM equipment and we could wreak havoc with just about any radio frequency we wanted to.
My point is there seems to be potential problems that we just don't have answers for.

 

[Moosewax]

I'll apologize to all who may have taken offense to my comments, they weren't meant to minimize anyone's work. The only difference between mapping 20 or 2000 acres is the number of batteries it will take. I currently map 145 acres, with minimal elevation changes. takes two sets of batteries on in Inspire 2, and two cups of coffee. I mapped 90 acres with a 400 foot elevation change, that did take a little planning, but again not too involved.

The danger in carving someone up with the props is one of the reasons we don't fly over people, or in close proximity to people not involved in the flight. I don't even let the drone get close to me during landing or takeoff for the above reasons.

Lets face it, how long did it take to get the hang of flying your first drone. I don't know about others but it took me about an hour to get really comfortable with it.

Now I have a question. If your drone is doing mapping and takes off on it's own, and doesn't respond to return to home as a last resort, and someone gets injured. Who's fault is it?

No need to apologize, upon rereading my post I realize it came across all aggro.

Maybe a better way to phrase it would be that yes for some people mapping is easy especially at a Drone Deploy level with a DJI or similar out the box filly integrated solution.

As far as your last question it sounds like your describing a technical malfunction.

If you can prove it and are willing/able to lawyer up maybe you can get the manufacturer on the hook.

However if there are any holes in your defense, lack of maintenance records, test flights, inspections etc I would suspect the PIC could be held responsible.

I am not sure how it would play out it a court of law but I would hazard a guess that a lot of variables could influence it either way.

 

[Moosewax]

Good question, but since I"m not a computer or drone engineer to me autonomous flight is FM to me, (FM - freaking magic). I lost control of mine over some construction buildings that were a few hundred yards away. After doing a pano it just hovered in the same location. I drove over and once I got close I regained control. My transmitter was fully charged. But the offices had several high powered routers, same frequency. So why in the world are drones using the same frequency as routers?
When I was in the Navy many years ago we had some early ECM equipment and we could wreak havoc with just about any radio frequency we wanted to.
My point is there seems to be potential problems that we just don't have answers for.

Dude I don't think it is a mystery, 2.4ghz is an open band legal to transmit on. It is popular with wireless networks for that reason, lately also for drones. It is stronger than 5.8ghz which is another option.

You can transmit on other bands but most of that gear is not easily available in the US and it is usually illegal. Your potentially interfering with important transmitters for other things such as aircraft navigation. Or you could have someone official roll up to you if you broadcast long enough and stay in one place.

In your scenario the PIC maybe could be held at fault for not checking their environment fur sources of interference you did the right thing getting closer though. Although your gear being DJI at 10% battery it would have just auto landed.

This is what I meant earlier that it isn't exactly easy using drones professionally in many different environments and situations. Everything can be going great and bam something that was not calculated for or goes wrong can happen.

 

[Moosewax]

Good question, but since I"m not a computer or drone engineer to me autonomous flight is FM to me, (FM - freaking magic). I lost control of mine over some construction buildings that were a few hundred yards away. After doing a pano it just hovered in the same location. I drove over and once I got close I regained control. My transmitter was fully charged. But the offices had several high powered routers, same frequency. So why in the world are drones using the same frequency as routers?
When I was in the Navy many years ago we had some early ECM equipment and we could wreak havoc with just about any radio frequency we wanted to.
My point is there seems to be potential problems that we just don't have answers for.

One last thing in your scenario, depending on your settings, your DJI drone would have auto returned to home at 30% or lower if you have smart RTH on (it is on by default).

 

[Jammer]

Just to keep the thread going along, here are some reasons for why some of these problems happen

1) Incorrect home point
Low battery, loss of telemetry, etc causes aircraft to proceed to the incorrect home point.
Reason = Pilot error

2) Calibration Error.
Aircraft not calibrated correctly before flight
Reason = Pilot error

3) Telemetry failure due to interference.
Aircraft flown in area where there is strong radio interference.
Reason = Pilot error

4) Aircraft Software failure.
Reason = Various

5) Aircraft Mechanical Failure
Reason = Various

6) Pilot Error
Reason = Fatigue
Reason = Poor Training
Reason = Recency

7) Weather related
Reason = Pilot Error

As with mosts incidents in aviation, there are usually a number of combining factors that are the cause.

In our operation, if a pilot makes an error setting the home point or makes a similar type of mistake, its possible that he or she was suffering from fatigue or may need further training. When that happens the responsibility falls back to me because thats my job.

When a serious accident happens I will have to produce all the training and maintenance records for both pilot and aircraft. If I can show that I have done everything by the book, and I mean 100% squeaky clean by the book, then the ATSB will approach the regulator (CASA or the FAA) and look to them for why the accident happened.

THEY are the ones who provided the regulations WHICH FAILED on this occasion.

Good topic BTW...

J

 

[BigAl07]

Some people refer for an aircraft as a plane, pilots will many times refer to it by the aircraft name. If using UAS makes one feel more "professional" then use it. Many times the only difference between a professional and an amateur is the professional gets paid.
I can remember a day when pilots had to actually fly their aircraft, long before GPS, and autonomous flights. Half the time I don't fly my drone, Drone Deploy will do the mapping while I drink my coffee and watch it, Litchi will fly to preset locations and do my panos. Then once in a while I get to do elevation shoots and I actually get to fly it.
To me, there is no rocket science in flying these things, and the skill required is minimal to say the least. To me, I could care less what it's called, I make some good bucks with it, and enjoy doing it.

^^^^^^^ One of the best posts I've seen on this forum to date . . . . The only thing it lacked was a single comment at the end:

"Mic Drop"

 

[R.Perry]

Two things I have issue with. Telemetry failure due to interference. If I have no knowledge of potential radio interference and my bird goes down due to it, it isn't my fault, it isn't pilot error. Now that I now know that the construction buildings have high power routers if I were to make the same mistake, yes it would be my fault.

You are correct that physical factors such as fatigue can be a factor in any accident. Tell me how you prove fatigue well after the fact? Poor training, sure but in most cases folks flying drones are self taught, we go out buy a drone, fly it and learn as we go. Agreed this probably isn't the best, but it is reality.
The company I work for gives a performance test to anyone wanting to work for them, and it isn't an easy test because of the environment we work in. However there are people that buy a drone, pickup a business license, and hang their shingle out and there is no performance evaluation required.

Maybe the time will come when someone wanting a commercial drone license will need to prove they can fly it well, and is a safe manner, but that day hasn't come yet. That is why a new private pilot can't jump into commercial aviation until he builds some time, knowledge, and experience.

In your outline of possible causes for an accident or failure you start with pilot error. I have dealt with the FAA many times, and I have never had an accident. One thing I do know, in any incident the first thing they want to do is blame the pilot unless it is blatantly obvious pilot error wasn't a factor.[/QUOTE]

 

[flockshot]

Two things I have issue with. Telemetry failure due to interference. If I have no knowledge of potential radio interference and my bird goes down due to it, it isn't my fault, it isn't pilot error. Now that I now know that the construction buildings have high power routers if I were to make the same mistake, yes it would be my fault.

You are correct that physical factors such as fatigue can be a factor in any accident. Tell me how you prove fatigue well after the fact? Poor training, sure but in most cases folks flying drones are self taught, we go out buy a drone, fly it and learn as we go. Agreed this probably isn't the best, but it is reality.
The company I work for gives a performance test to anyone wanting to work for them, and it isn't an easy test because of the environment we work in. However there are people that buy a drone, pickup a business license, and hang their shingle out and there is no performance evaluation required.

Maybe the time will come when someone wanting a commercial drone license will need to prove they can fly it well, and is a safe manner, but that day hasn't come yet. That is why a new private pilot can't jump into commercial aviation until he builds some time, knowledge, and experience.

In your outline of possible causes for an accident or failure you start with pilot error. I have dealt with the FAA many times, and I have never had an accident. One thing I do know, in any incident the first thing they want to do is blame the pilot unless it is blatantly obvious pilot error wasn't a factor.

[/QUOTE]
Note the difference between 'fault' and 'responsibility'. It may not be the airliner's fault that a flock of birds stopped their engine, but it is their responsibility that this event doesn't cause damage or death when the plane crashes to the ground.
As a UAV pilot, it may not be your fault that a prop broke in flight when a hawk hit your drone, but it is your responsibility to make sure nobody, or their property, gets damaged as a result.
This is why we don't fly over people, cars, etc.
The saying in aviation is to "hit the softest, least expensive thing you can, when things go bad".