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Denied for night flying and over people, they want me to do crash tests and submit data

Photogad

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G'day friends. I bought a small DJI spark to supplement my wedding photography, light and portable for some quick shots of the beautifully lit wedding venues at night, from above. Of course, I need a night waiver for that, and also a waiver to fly over people. I submitted my waiver application a few weeks ago, but was denied today. Basically they denied it because they want me to conduct scientific drop tests, crash tests, etc and submit the data to them showing how my DJI spark will hurt or damage people from different altitudes. WTF? Or maybe I'm just reading their response wrong.

Here is what they said:

The FAA is unable to approve your request for a waiver to § 107.39 because the risk of injury to human beings was not adequately addressed. To operate over human beings, your application must show that if the proposed sUA collides with a person, the degree of injury has been evaluated through testing. The results of the testing (e.g., modeling data, drop tests, test data) must be included in the application. Helpful references to assist with a § 107.39 waiver submissions include:
-"The Micro Unmanned Aircraft Systems Aviation Rulemaking Committee (ARC) Recommendations Final Report." http://www.faa.gov/uas/resources/uas_regulations_policy/media/Micro-UAS-ARC-FINAL-Report.pdf; and
- Designation: F3178 Operational Risk Assessment of sUAS (fee charged). ASTM International - Standards Worldwide. ASTM is an organization that produces standards for the industry, including operational risk assessments for sUAS.
If you would like to reapply, include as much detail as required to describe the proposed operation, the purpose of the operation, and method by which the proposed operation can be safely conducted. Information should identify potential hazards and risks of the waivered operation, including risk-mitigation strategies, and characteristics of the sUAS. Refer to the waiver safety explanation guidelines at: Request a Part 107 Waiver or Operation in Controlled Airspace. You must address each of the guidelines for the applicable regulatory section to be waived. Address each guideline and how you propose to mitigate risks associated with the hazards utilizing operating limitations, technology, training, equipment, personnel, restricted access areas, etc. Only request a waiver from regulatory sections necessary to conduct the operation.




Any ideas? How can I do these tests that they want done? Anyone else that got these waivers know what to say? Help.

Here's what I put in my application for flying over people:

I will be hired to do aerial photo and video at private weddings and other events in which the event organizer has hired me. I will also be doing aerial photo and video for portrait sessions in which the person being photographed has hired me. For these events and portrait sessions, I need to fly over the people that are participating, and I will have full permission of everyone involved. My sUAS (drone) weighs only 0.56lbs and it equipped with safety sensors to prevent it from landing on people (or any objects). I will not fly it higher than 200' AGL for these operations. I carry full liability insurance. I will have a visual observer present at all times monitoring the sky for air traffic as well as the position of my sUAS in relation to people on the ground. I will NEVER let my sUAS go out of line of sight.

Here's what I put in my application for night flying (which they seemed to not have a problem with?)

I will be hired to do aerial photo and video at private weddings and other events in which the event organizer has hired me. I will also be doing aerial photo and video for portrait sessions in which the person being photographed has hired me. For these events and portrait sessions, I will occasionally need to fly my sUAS at night time, as some of these events carry on past dark.

My sUAS is equipped with ultra-bright strobe LED anti-collision lights that are visible from more than 3 statute miles away. I have these installed on the front, rear, top, and bottom.

I will have a minimum of one visual observer present at all times monitoring the sky for air traffic as well as the position of my sUAS.

At night time, I will not be flying my sUAS more than 100' AGL. I will NEVER let my sUAS go out of line of sight. I will only operate when surface visibility is at least 5 miles.
 
G'day friends. I bought a small DJI spark to supplement my wedding photography, light and portable for some quick shots of the beautifully lit wedding venues at night, from above. Of course, I need a night waiver for that, and also a waiver to fly over people. I submitted my waiver application a few weeks ago, but was denied today. Basically they denied it because they want me to conduct scientific drop tests, crash tests, etc and submit the data to them showing how my DJI spark will hurt or damage people from different altitudes. WTF? Or maybe I'm just reading their response wrong.

Here is what they said:

The FAA is unable to approve your request for a waiver to § 107.39 because the risk of injury to human beings was not adequately addressed. To operate over human beings, your application must show that if the proposed sUA collides with a person, the degree of injury has been evaluated through testing. The results of the testing (e.g., modeling data, drop tests, test data) must be included in the application. Helpful references to assist with a § 107.39 waiver submissions include:
-"The Micro Unmanned Aircraft Systems Aviation Rulemaking Committee (ARC) Recommendations Final Report." http://www.faa.gov/uas/resources/uas_regulations_policy/media/Micro-UAS-ARC-FINAL-Report.pdf; and
- Designation: F3178 Operational Risk Assessment of sUAS (fee charged). ASTM International - Standards Worldwide. ASTM is an organization that produces standards for the industry, including operational risk assessments for sUAS.
If you would like to reapply, include as much detail as required to describe the proposed operation, the purpose of the operation, and method by which the proposed operation can be safely conducted. Information should identify potential hazards and risks of the waivered operation, including risk-mitigation strategies, and characteristics of the sUAS. Refer to the waiver safety explanation guidelines at: Request a Part 107 Waiver or Operation in Controlled Airspace. You must address each of the guidelines for the applicable regulatory section to be waived. Address each guideline and how you propose to mitigate risks associated with the hazards utilizing operating limitations, technology, training, equipment, personnel, restricted access areas, etc. Only request a waiver from regulatory sections necessary to conduct the operation.




Any ideas? How can I do these tests that they want done? Anyone else that got these waivers know what to say? Help.

Here's what I put in my application for flying over people:

I will be hired to do aerial photo and video at private weddings and other events in which the event organizer has hired me. I will also be doing aerial photo and video for portrait sessions in which the person being photographed has hired me. For these events and portrait sessions, I need to fly over the people that are participating, and I will have full permission of everyone involved. My sUAS (drone) weighs only 0.56lbs and it equipped with safety sensors to prevent it from landing on people (or any objects). I will not fly it higher than 200' AGL for these operations. I carry full liability insurance. I will have a visual observer present at all times monitoring the sky for air traffic as well as the position of my sUAS in relation to people on the ground. I will NEVER let my sUAS go out of line of sight.

Here's what I put in my application for night flying (which they seemed to not have a problem with?)

I will be hired to do aerial photo and video at private weddings and other events in which the event organizer has hired me. I will also be doing aerial photo and video for portrait sessions in which the person being photographed has hired me. For these events and portrait sessions, I will occasionally need to fly my sUAS at night time, as some of these events carry on past dark.

My sUAS is equipped with ultra-bright strobe LED anti-collision lights that are visible from more than 3 statute miles away. I have these installed on the front, rear, top, and bottom.

I will have a minimum of one visual observer present at all times monitoring the sky for air traffic as well as the position of my sUAS.

At night time, I will not be flying my sUAS more than 100' AGL. I will NEVER let my sUAS go out of line of sight. I will only operate when surface visibility is at least 5 miles.

LOL. Now you know why the only folks with 107.39 waivers are very big outfits with very large bank accounts. Us little guys are not going to get 107.39 waivers anytime soon. And attempting to get a 107.29 & 39 is a double whammy. Not going to happen.

Do you really must fly directly over people? Sometimes parallel shots are just as good.
 
LOL. Now you know why the only folks with 107.39 waivers are very big outfits with very large bank accounts. Us little guys are not going to get 107.39 waivers anytime soon. And attempting to get a 107.29 & 39 is a double whammy. Not going to happen.

Do you really must fly directly over people? Sometimes parallel shots are just as good.

I mean I can't really anticipate if I will or not? Some of these weddings have 200+ people at the venue. What if someone steps out of a door and then goes underneath the drone unexpectedly?

Question: For portrait sessions, let's say of a bride and groom. I want to get shots directly above them looking down 90 degree angle. They are the only ones under the drone, they are the ones requesting the shot, and they are the ones paying me to do it. Do I really NEED 107.39 waiver for that? Is the 107.39 waiver intended to be for flying over people who don't expect it? It seems like I wouldn't need the waiver for this type of thing and if the FAA is saying I do need one, that's kind of ridiculous especially if the people I am flying over are the ones asking me to do it. But I want to make sure I have all my bases covered.

I guess I could potentially do without the 107.39 waiver. But I will definitely need the 107.29 waiver for night flying because I have a lot of people wanting shots of their wedding venue lit up at night time. Maybe I should try applying again for just the 107.29 waiver alone? What do you think? They didn't write anything in their rejection letter about the night flying, only the flying over people, but they still denied both. Do you think what I wrote is sufficient, or should I revise that as well? What should I add?

Thank you for your help mate. :)
 
You have a much better chance to get the 107.29 separately.
IMHO, You will not get the 107.39 w/o spending a lot of $$ and time.

I read again the 107.39 and it says:
(a) Directly participating in the operation of the small unmanned aircraft

Could we consider a client paying me to take their photos and consenting to the drone being above them as "participating in the operation"?

it's so vague.
 
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That has been tried before. The feds define "participation" as those persons directly involved in the operation, your ground crew, observers, etc. Not bystanders.

So all of those wedding videos you see with the drone flying towards a bride and groom and then over their heads are illegal? Darn. Now I feel like those people should be reported, but I don't want to be "that guy".

Are there any definitions to what "above people" actually means? Would I be safe being, lets say 5 ft in front of a person horizontally, and then 30 ft in the air, to almost give the illusion that im directly above them?
 
No definition from the feds, When you try that type of rule question from the feds they just quote you the rule. Trust me, I've tried.
You are getting into an area I really don't want to get into. As PIC, it is up to you to determine what conditions are safe. If something happens, did you take every safety measure possible? Did you leave yourself a sufficient margin of safety? Did you consider the path of momentum in case of motor failure? Too many questions to answer in the abstract...
 
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They have intentionally made it 'grey area'. If there is an incident and someone is hit with your sUAS you were operating too close.

Flying directly over people is dull and boring and even more so at a wedding IMHO.
 
This is my non-lawyer opinion from 50 years experience with commercial flight.

FAA rules are intentionally vague. "Over people" is a relative term precisely to give the FAA some latitude in deciding to prosecute if there is an accident. 49 CFR §830.2 has the definition of "Serious Injury" that the FAA and NTSB use in their accident investigations. If the accident doesn't elevate to the legal definition of serious injury under 830.2, they are highly unlikely to expend any resources to investigate. A band-aid is not a serious injury.

I would not have asked for a waiver over people (just my opinion) because everything you describe can be staged without being directly over anyone. And if there is an accident that somehow rises to the level of 830.2, then the conclusion will be that you must have flown over people. Whether you were or not, waivered or not. So why bother?

The number of verifiable reports of a drone crash in the US that resulted in a serious injury to someone not connected to the flight can be counted on one cartoon hand.

When asking for waivers, don't ask the FAA for more than you need, and especially don't provide more information than required. The FAA doesn't care what your business is, who hired you, what drone you have or if you have insurance.
 
I was speaking with the owner of our franchise (Multivista) regarding the waivers we have, and what they had to go through to get the waivers is incredible, and was very costly. I was told that they waiver for my project included twenty five pages of data, meaning if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with BS. The only waiver we have for overflights of people is for mapping, and that is a minimum of 300 ft AGL and only over construction people wearing PPE gear, meaning NO overflights of students. We have a project in South San Francisco two miles from SFO and still no waiver from my understanding, meaning no flights period.

The reality is it is like sports, play by the rules or get out of the game.
 
They have intentionally made it 'grey area'. If there is an incident and someone is hit with your sUAS you were operating too close.

Flying directly over people is dull and boring and even more so at a wedding IMHO.

The idea was more or less to have the drone about 10ft above the bride and groom to get a photo of them from directly above. Its a signature shot we've been doing for 8 years using a 12 ft step ladder and very popular, every client requests this shot. Was hoping to use the drone instead because would be much easier, quicker, and safer. Oh well. Guess we will have to keep doing it the old way... Far more dangerous imo to have a 30lb ladder, 180lb human, and 10lb camera hovering over someone than a 0.56Lb drone. But whatever. That's beaurocracy at work. I still don't understand why the FAA should care if 2ppl are requesting this, and signing off on it, being the ones flown over. Like if I decided that I wanted someone to jump a motorcycle over me (eivel kneivel) the government shouldn't be able to tell me no...
 
A thought, but RE: the stipulation of not being able to fly above someone unless they are a part of the crew, what would be stopping someone in theory from having the clients being flown over from signing an agreement that they are visual observers in the operation?
 
The idea was more or less to have the drone about 10ft above the bride and groom to get a photo of them from directly above. Its a signature shot we've been doing for 8 years using a 12 ft step ladder and very popular, every client requests this shot. Was hoping to use the drone instead because would be much easier, quicker, and safer. Oh well. Guess we will have to keep doing it the old way... Far more dangerous imo to have a 30lb ladder, 180lb human, and 10lb camera hovering over someone than a 0.56Lb drone. But whatever. That's beaurocracy at work. I still don't understand why the FAA should care if 2ppl are requesting this, and signing off on it, being the ones flown over. Like if I decided that I wanted someone to jump a motorcycle over me (eivel kneivel) the government shouldn't be able to tell me no...
"Like if I decided that I wanted someone to jump a motorcycle over me (eivel kneivel) "
Oh that we can approve...:D:D:D

You are wasting your time getting consensus here. We are all professional pilots, been at this for quite a while, understand a lot of the stuff the FAA gives us is nonsense, but we don't have a choice.
 
This is my non-lawyer opinion from 50 years experience with commercial flight.

FAA rules are intentionally vague. "Over people" is a relative term precisely to give the FAA some latitude in deciding to prosecute if there is an accident. 49 CFR §830.2 has the definition of "Serious Injury" that the FAA and NTSB use in their accident investigations. If the accident doesn't elevate to the legal definition of serious injury under 830.2, they are highly unlikely to expend any resources to investigate. A band-aid is not a serious injury.

I would not have asked for a waiver over people (just my opinion) because everything you describe can be staged without being directly over anyone. And if there is an accident that somehow rises to the level of 830.2, then the conclusion will be that you must have flown over people. Whether you were or not, waivered or not. So why bother?

The number of verifiable reports of a drone crash in the US that resulted in a serious injury to someone not connected to the flight can be counted on one cartoon hand.

When asking for waivers, don't ask the FAA for more than you need, and especially don't provide more information than required. The FAA doesn't care what your business is, who hired you, what drone you have or if you have insurance.

So do you think i am screwed now and tagged by the FAA as a risk should something happen because i applied and then was denied? I am not going to fly over anyone or break any laws, of course we all know drones can malfunction.


I didn't know getting the waiver was so impossible or i wouldn't have tried to do it. I honestly thought i was doing a good thing by trying to obtain the waivers lawfully before attempting any operations. I browsed the list of granted waivers and saw a lot being granted for night flying and some here and there (maybe i remembered incorrectly) for the flying over people so i thought i had a decent chance.
 
"Like if I decided that I wanted someone to jump a motorcycle over me (eivel kneivel) "
Oh that we can approve...:D:D:D

You are wasting your time getting consensus here. We are all professional pilots, been at this for quite a while, understand a lot of the stuff the FAA gives us is nonsense, but we don't have a choice.

I understand, of course. No one likes more rules and regulations. But we do have a choice. We elect people that make these laws. We have voting power and need to exercise it. I am good friends with a member of Congress and will see what she says could be done about trying to pass legislation that would ease the restrictions. Just gotta get the other 534 members of Congress to agree which may take some effort :p
 
So do you think i am screwed now and tagged by the FAA as a risk should something happen because i applied and then was denied? I am not going to fly over anyone or break any laws, of course we all know drones can malfunction.


I didn't know getting the waiver was so impossible or i wouldn't have tried to do it. I honestly thought i was doing a good thing by trying to obtain the waivers lawfully before attempting any operations. I browsed the list of granted waivers and saw a lot being granted for night flying and some here and there (maybe i remembered incorrectly) for the flying over people so i thought i had a decent chance.
"we all know drones can malfunction." Thus the rules.
 
I understand, of course. No one likes more rules and regulations. But we do have a choice. We elect people that make these laws. We have voting power and need to exercise it. I am good friends with a member of Congress and will see what she says could be done about trying to pass legislation that would ease the restrictions. Just gotta get the other 534 members of Congress to agree which may take some effort :p
Good luck.
 
So why don’t you apply using the same airframe that CNN used to get their overflight waiver? Come on guys, I’m 3000 miles away under different jurisdiction and can think of this. It’s not expensive and you could point to CNNs waiver as a precedent.
 
So why don’t you apply using the same airframe that CNN used to get their overflight waiver? Come on guys, I’m 3000 miles away under different jurisdiction and can think of this. It’s not expensive and you could point to CNNs waiver as a precedent.

The FAA makes the Waiver itself public. The Application that has all the details which the FAA approved is NOT available publicly and I doubt CNN is willing to share it. Perhaps being 3000 miles away you have a plan...or a way to hack the FAA's (or CNN's) servers? :p:)
 
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