Licensed Surveyors vs. UAS Operators offering "mapping" and related services

[RussOnTheRoad]

Hey Dave,

I would like to see the lawsuit conclude, one way or another. Then, if needed, there would be a significant legal precedent which can be referenced by anyone who is familiar with the case, even though some State-level Agencies, Departments or Organizations outside of North Carolina may have issues with the final judgement. I've had no problems in interactions with Licensed Surveyors (quite the opposite). Let's see what happens with the suit.

I am not a lawyer and could be wrong about this, but I think in order for legal precedent to be set and be binding on lower courts a case must be ruled on at the appellate level (appeals court). If not, judges are free to consider or not any similar cases that may have been adjudicated.

 

[Sitework Frone Services]

I think you miss the context of business and a profession and it's not just about the term "Survey" or Surveying", it's the technicality of the regulations. You can't use a blanket definition from a dictionary to understand it. Fortunately I live(d) on both sides of the fence so I not only operate a very successful drone services operation, but I consult and train as well. I lapsed my license because Surveying is a really hard profession to make money at and quite honestly the traditional survey work is tedious and not as fun when you get to the top. At the same time my serious skills are in design and modeling so I diverted my path and 18 years later have almost come full circle in which I will most certainly renew my license. The difference here is that I know exactly where to stop and bluntly tell any of my clients when the need to stop and order a Surveyor. The point in all this is that we all need to respect each others professions and that at the end of the day each other.

Try you are comparing to the government Godetic

I am not a lawyer and could be wrong about this, but I think in order for legal precedent to be set and be binding on lower courts a case must be ruled on by at the appellate level (appeals court). If not, judges are free to consider or not any similar cases that may have beendicated.

 

[Sitework Frone Services]

I am not a lawyer and could be wrong about this, but I think in order for legal precedent to be set and be binding on lower courts a case must be ruled on by at the appellate level (appeals court). If not, judges are free to consider or not any similar cases that may have been adjudicated.

 

[Sitework Frone Services]

Say you are furnishing a comparable survey to the U.S. National Geodetic mapping for couyours the same Geodetic satiation as left and to be used to establish ground control for

Starting this thread even though it overlaps with other threads. My intent is to see this thread evolve as news becomes available relative a submittal on 22 March 2021, related to a lawsuit filed in North Carolina. The implications of an unfavorable judgement would be significant, from the viewpoint of UAS Operators and software companies offering products or services related to "mapping" and other topics. I highly recommend grabbing some coffee or tea and reading through the linked information.

 

[Fred Garvin]

What's a "Frone"? (@Sitework Frone Services)

 

[Sitework Frone Services]

In your UAV mapping you are comparing it to the U.S. National Geodetic mapping by the US government. Which is done at 3000 miles above earth and yours is preformed at FAA part 107 rules for flying a UAV. [ no more than 400ft above ground elevation]. You UAV mapping is enhancing the ground elevations established by U.S. National Geodetic.

 

[racervt911]

The lawsuit document may be worth your time to read if your website or other communication techniques use the following terms (not an all-inclusive list):
survey, surveying, land surveying, structure surveying, map, mapping, model, modeling, digital models/modeling, digital twin, 3D model, 3D modeling, geospatial modeling, geospatial metadata, stitch/stitching, location coordinate data, location data, elevation data, dimension data, orthomosaic, topographic, contour map, aerial or ground images and data about "land" or "structures", photos, images, metadata, stitching, heat data, location data, distance data, stockpile, volume data, (measurement) calculations, photography services, aerial photography, depiction of "approximate" property lines or boundaries, "accurate aerial maps", "oblique aerial imaging", (any assertion or declaration by the UAS Operator to be not a Licensed Surveyor).

Thank you for making us aware of this lawsuit that would have huge implications on our industry. I will follow this closely.

 

[Sitework Frone Services]

Side note:Most Suveyors do not even know where the National Geodetic Points are located. These points are for anyone to use. These points are used to calibrate the GPS satellites. GPS is free for anyone to use. This use is not restricted to surveyors to use. the Government US Geordtic Land points are free. To every one to use if your are using a RTK UAV.

 

[adm_geomatics]

Side note:Most Suveyors do not even know where the National Geodetic Points are located. These points are for anyone to use. These points are used to calibrate the GPS satellites. GPS is free for anyone to use. This use is not restricted to surveyors to use. the Government US Geordtic Land points are free. To every one to use if your are using a RTK UAV.

You really need to clean up your posts. We can't understand half of what you are writing.

I'm not sure where you are but every PLS that I work with knows where all the NGS monuments are and their vertical benchmarks are leveled either directly from an NGS or another benchmark that they themselves have set. This has nothing to do with the use of public data. It's about providing data and services commercially that by many laws require a license. It's also about educating the public (drone mappers) as to exactly what they can and can't do since 75% of them know absolutely nothing about Surveying or GNSS. Some are even so clueless that I have doubted whether or not I should even be consulting them. Most people don't even know that there are at least 7 different types of surveying. That said, what North Carolina is doing is overkill almost to the point of Facism but they are trying to set a precedent as well.

 

[R.Perry]

As in all tyrannical situations, they first control the language, then they control you.

I love it, and a small element of truth. Ask any lawyer how important language is. If protecting myself by avoiding certain language is going to make my life easier, and reduce potential problems then I guess I will submit to those rules.

 

[Sitework Frone Services]

You really need to clean up your posts. We can't understand half of what you are writing.

I'm not sure where you are but every PLS that I work with knows where all the NGS monuments are and their vertical benchmarks are leveled either directly from an NGS or another benchmark that they themselves have set. This has nothing to do with the use of public data. It's about providing data and services commercially that by many laws require a license. It's also about educating the public (drone mappers) as to exactly what they can and can't do since 75% of them know absolutely nothing about Surveying or GNSS. Some are even so clueless that I have doubted whether or not I should even be consulting them. Most people don't even know that there are at least 7 different types of surveying. That said, what North Carolina is doing is overkill almost to the point of Facism but they are trying to set a precedent as well.

Sorry you are up set. But the fact are the facts

surveyor do not own gps. This was made for all users to use!

 

[adm_geomatics]

Sorry you are up set. But the fact are the facts

surveyor do not own gps. This was made for all users to use!

Try using Google translate. Maybe your ideas will come across better. You are obviously not grasping the concept of this thread. Or you're just Trolling.

 

[Sitework Frone Services]

Sorry you are up set. But the fact are the facts

surveyor do not own gps. This was made for all users to use!

Mapping is not surveying ( either by RTR or taking photos)
Looks like are the states trying to take away your federal rights.
All rtk do not have have control points thus they do not need property lines or control points installed by a surveyor

thus they are not surveying

 

[Sitework Frone Services]

Mapping is not doing meets and bounds survey only a wide area of data used to establish elevation points

 

[adm_geomatics]

Mapping is not doing meets and bounds survey only a wide area of data used to establish elevation points

It's not about our rights as human beings to go perform an action to collect data - it's about what is done with that data. When Johnny Rocket drone mapper gives someone a map with pretty colored lines on where the apparent property lines are then that is a breach. He probably has no idea of what a plat is or if there are any easements. I can give someone a map with no annotation of property with a CAD file of a proposed design overlayed and no guarantee of accuracy and we have no problems. A drone services company called Johnny Rocket's Drone Survey Mapping that markets survey-grade accuracy is a breach. Anyone can make a map. I can draw one of my subdivision on a napkin now. I think we all know what data we are dealing with so we should get back to the subject of the post which is what services can be provided by a non-PLS and how should they be marketed. It's quite obvious that North Carolina and other States for that matter are overstepping their bounds, but what do we expect them to do when their profession is being invaded... especially when by an operator that REALLY knows what their doing. Those that don't really know are more akin to be lucky and will not last long as this industry progresses. It's already to the point that very few clients only want a pretty 2D map alone.

 

[Sitework Frone Services]

True
Mobile phones are tough to text on sorry!
I am having 2 surgeries and I am a drugged up

again sorry

 

[adm_geomatics]

True
Mobile phones are tough to text on sorry!
I am having 2 surgeries and I am a drugged up

again sorry

Godspeed on the surgeries!

 

[R Martin]

I think you miss the context of business and a profession and it's not just about the term "Survey" or Surveying", it's the technicality of the regulations. You can't use a blanket definition from a dictionary to understand it. Fortunately I live(d) on both sides of the fence so I not only operate a very successful drone services operation, but I consult and train as well. I lapsed my license because Surveying is a really hard profession to make money at and quite honestly the traditional survey work is tedious and not as fun when you get to the top. At the same time my serious skills are in design and modeling so I diverted my path and 18 years later have almost come full circle in which I will most certainly renew my license. The difference here is that I know exactly where to stop and bluntly tell any of my clients when the need to stop and order a Surveyor. The point in all this is that we all need to respect each others professions and that at the end of the day each other.

Know your limits and draw a hard line that is never crossed. Mark your work accordingly. Hope your civil engineer took some level of reading in school.

 

[John Githens]

OK, so if anyone is still following this thread, is there any news on "progress" of the NC court case?
Here is the latest info that I found. A quote: "If this case does in fact end here, NC drone pilots should beware of what can land them in hot water with the NCBEES and in violation of NC land surveying law. For example, the following items would be in violation: orthophotography, property boundaries, ground elevations, flood zones, wetlands, building footprints, and more."

BTW, this September 2022 speculative article by a Land Surveyor is worth reading and pondering.

 

[MikeA]

I am by no means an expert, or even a PLS, but I have been casually following this issue in several different forums. There are some states that are more restrictive and some that are less, so everyone should do their homework of course.

Regarding the article, it is interesting that the 2015 SC case shows a future where protected or restricted professions only cover a very narrow window of services (i.e. pulling teeth vs whitening teeth). I can think of some industries that have been "disrupted" as new technology cheaply flooded the market, like Uber driving instead of buying a million dollar taxi medallion.

For the surveying industry specifically, that may mean in the future they will still be stamping anything regarding property lines or absolute positions of something (tooth pullers), but that jobs such as "Chet" using software to stitch together a map of a ranch or estimate the volume of a gravel pile gets put into the world of unlicensed operators (tooth whiteners).

Inevitably, I believe, there will be contract disputes where one person with DroneDeploy says it's 3000 cubic meters and another says it is 2500, so a real PLS is hired (for more $$$) to settle it. It will be interesting however it goes.

It seems there is some weight to the Supreme Court feeling that it is hard to have the Widget producing council to control who can make widgets, and expect there to be competition in the market. They will always tend to want everything related to their field to fall under their purview. But what is the alternative? No certifications for anything simply because it hurts competition?

Reading PLS requirements for various US states, one must spend years and some money to get an engineering degree, then work for someone who is already in the PLS club for a couple more years, before getting recommended to be a PLS by someone already in the club, and getting references from other people in the club, to get approved as a PLS. And most of the pre-PLS/LSIT jobs seem to pay VERY little. I am not against licensing or standards for certain jobs, but that definitely comes off like a very closed shop.

Could there be an in-betweener cert (below LSIT) that is more accessible and adapts to modern technology? Such as a Field Tech - basically a data collector using tech (gps base, drone, phone attached RTK) to follow an established procedure to mark GCPs, estimate stockpiles, etc.? Nothing related to property lines or monuments or historical issues.

I am interested to know what other people think SHOULD happen, and what they think WILL happen, since there is no way to put the technology (RTK/PPK GPS, drones, mapping software) away and people are already using it.