...local regs: over reach?

[zander lane]

...I have a wedding to fly in may in san clemente - after checking the city ordinances I found this dreaded paragraph:

8.82.030 - Prohibited Operations for UA
C. ..... No person shall takeoff, land, or operate a UA on or over private property without the written or electronic consent of the property owner, if the property owner is a person other than the UA operator. When consent to operate a UA is required to takeoff, land, or operate a UA on or over private property, UA operators must have on their possession a copy of the written or electronic consent from the owner of the property, or properties, over which they takeoff, land, or operate a UA.

...I could have sworn that the FAA is the only body that can make this kind of regulation on overflight law? - this pretty much limits me to views looking straight down from within the boundaries of the venue's small property or regular views looking AWAY from the ceremony site...sigh.

...is this enforceable? should I obey and just give up? should I ignore and plead ignorance and forgiveness? suggestions?

...very frustrating!

 

[drone Pilot]

49 USC
40103. Sovereignty and use of airspace
(a) Sovereignty and Public Right of Transit.-(1) The United States Government has exclusive sovereignty of airspace of the United States.
(2) A citizen of the United States has a public right of transit through the navigable airspace. To further that right, the Secretary of Transportation shall consult with the Architectural and Transportation Barriers Compliance Board established under section 502 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973 (29 U.S.C. 792) before prescribing a regulation or issuing an order or procedure that will have a significant impact on the accessibility of commercial airports or commercial air transportation for handicapped individuals.
(b) Use of Airspace.-(1) The Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration shall develop plans and policy for the use of the navigable airspace and assign by regulation or order the use of the airspace necessary to ensure the safety of aircraft and the efficient use of airspace. The Administrator may modify or revoke an assignment when required in the public interest.
(2) The Administrator shall prescribe air traffic regulations on the flight of aircraft (including regulations on safe altitudes) for-
(A) navigating, protecting, and identifying aircraft;
(B) protecting individuals and property on the ground;
(C) using the navigable airspace efficiently; and
(D) preventing collision between aircraft, between aircraft and land or water vehicles, and between aircraft and airborne objects.

 

[BigAl07]

...I have a wedding to fly in may in san clemente - after checking the city ordinances I found this dreaded paragraph:

8.82.030 - Prohibited Operations for UA
C. ..... No person shall takeoff, land, or operate a UA on or over private property without the written or electronic consent of the property owner, if the property owner is a person other than the UA operator. When consent to operate a UA is required to takeoff, land, or operate a UA on or over private property, UA operators must have on their possession a copy of the written or electronic consent from the owner of the property, or properties, over which they takeoff, land, or operate a UA.

...I could have sworn that the FAA is the only body that can make this kind of regulation on overflight law? - this pretty much limits me to views looking straight down from within the boundaries of the venue's small property or regular views looking AWAY from the ceremony site...sigh.

...is this enforceable? should I obey and just give up? should I ignore and plead ignorance and forgiveness? suggestions?

...very frustrating!

It's "partially" enforceable...

Any land owner can dictate what you CAN or CANNOT do while physically on their land. It's a Land Use Ordinance and has nothing to do with the FAA and is 100% legal.

The portion they can NOT control is Flight OVER the land. All they can say is you can't fly from THIS/THAT land. They can't say you may not fly OVER anything because the FAA are the only US body that controls flights in the NAS.

 

[MapMaker53]

I assume the written consent from the venue is doable and is required by the town, which it has the authority to impose. That shouldn't be a problem. The fact that the town is attempting to control not the land but the airspace above other properties (assuming a reasonable altitude that doesn't disturb others) I believe is over reaching. Unfortunately, that still poses a problem if the neighbors complain. You could be fined, your drone temporarily confiscated, etc. You may have to go to town court to fight the charge. The question would be, is it worth it?

Since you have until May for this gig, my recommendation would be to visit the neighboring properties that you feel you may have to hover over to get your photos and introduce yourself and explain that you have been asked to film a wedding next door on such and such date. Tell them you wanted to give them a heads up and ask if they have any concerns regarding your flying a drone in the area to film and photograph the newlyweds. If they have no problem with it, you can probably side-step the written consent part (which might cause them to think twice) because if they are okay with the use of the drone they probably won't be calling the police.

 

[BigAl07]

I assume the written consent from the venue is doable and is required by the town, which it has the authority to impose. That shouldn't be a problem. The fact that the town is attempting to control not the land but the airspace above other properties (assuming a reasonable altitude that doesn't disturb others) I believe is over reaching. Unfortunately, that still poses a problem if the neighbors complain. You could be fined, your drone temporarily confiscated, etc. You may have to go to town court to fight the charge. The question would be, is it worth it?

Since you have until May for this gig, my recommendation would be to visit the neighboring properties that you feel you may have to hover over to get your photos and introduce yourself and explain that you have been asked to film a wedding next door on such and such date. Tell them you wanted to give them a heads up and ask if they have any concerns regarding your flying a drone in the area to film and photograph the newlyweds. If they have no problem with it, you can probably side-step the written consent part (which might cause them to think twice) because if they are okay with the use of the drone they probably won't be calling the police.

Very well written Excellent suggestion

 

[drone Pilot]

"Since you have until May for this gig, my recommendation would be to visit the neighboring properties that you feel you may have to hover over to get your photos and introduce yourself and explain that you have been asked to film a wedding next door on such and such date. Tell them you wanted to give them a heads up and ask if they have any concerns regarding your flying a drone in the area to film and photograph the newlyweds. If they have no problem with it, you can probably side-step the written consent part (which might cause them to think twice) because if they are okay with the use of the drone they probably won't be calling the police. '" , Those neighbors could be the ones who supported the city ordinance and if so will object to your flying, so what do you do now, whip out the FAA regulations and try to educate them ? Good Luck. I would argue that visiting and asking for permission (mother may I) sets a precedent where the community expects all UAS operators to knock on doors. This lowers the profession to that of a used car salesman and continues the negativity already promoted by the media about us. I say its the responsibility of the person who hires you to spread the word in their neighborhood and provide them with a copy of the FAA regs. We all must stand up and stop being passive , if not, we will never get the respect of the community.

 

[BigAl07]

Those neighbors could be the ones who supported the city ordinance and if so will object to your flying, so what do you do now, whip out the FAA regulations and try to educate them ? Good Luck. I would argue that visiting and asking for permission (mother may I) sets a precedent where the community expects all UAS operators to knock on doors. This lowers the profession to that of a used car salesman and continues the negativity already promoted by the media about us. I say its the responsibility of the person who hires you to spread the word in their neighborhood and provide them with a copy of the FAA regs. We all must stand up and stop being passive , if not, we will never get the respect of the community.

Well I'm glad to know that the "Professionalism" that I've been doing for many years now lowers me to the level of ....well anything... I don't sell cars but if I did that comment would genuinely light my fuse. What a rude and condescending comment coming from a "professional".

We have made it a policy to always "Try" to make contact with neighboring property when our Commercial sUAS flights might appear to be spying directly on them etc. We take the time to walk from door to door, knock, introduce ourselves/company and explain what we are doing. We show them we're professional, give our contact information and ask them to call us if they have any questions. Guess what happens on at least 1/4 of our residential shoots? At least 1 of those will call and ask more about our services and some of them book with us.

We had a single estate shoot for a client last summer in a gated community. We went in and identified each home we "might" be flying over and went door to door to meet & talk. It was 4 homes. The shoot went great and the home owners started talking about our services and guess what???? We got a call from one of the neighbors we had made contact with... they had a HOA meeting and decided that all 12 homes in the section wanted aerials. We went from taking a set of 4 pictures of one home to creating portfolios with multiple pictures and videos of TWELVE homes and all together. It was one of our most profitable Real Estate shoots to date (and that's saying a LOT). t took us 8 hours of flying (2 days total) to get them done but it was a great project and one I hope to replicate later this year at another location we are talking to.

IMHO it's being very UNPROFESSIONAL to not at least TRY to reach out and make contact to neighbors and show that we are considerate and willing to take the time and effort to be an Ambassador for our industry. If that's too much work for you then maybe you're in the wrong line of work. Don't forget that our industry is already shown in a very BAD LIGHT by all media so going the extra mile to show what we really do and that we are professionals is really a VERY good goal.

As always YMMV but I personally don't see reaching out (or trying to) doing anything but being a POSITIVE example in our industry. Sometimes the "Easy way" isn't the best way to get something done.

 

[Phaedrus]

You are not asking permission. You are informing them that you will be completing work for a client and exercising privileges granted by your FAA license. I've been in the same situation for decades in my main profession. When we are doing work on a job site (environmental assessment and remediation) we are required to inform neighbors, but we are NOT required to obtain their permission.

What cities don't get is they cannot exercise authority over the NAS. This would be no different than San Clemente deciding to change the speed limit on the part of I-5 that passes through their city. I also wonder if when Google and Apple mapping vehicles come through the City if they need the permission of each and every property owner that they capture images of.

 

[LUIS MARTINEZ]

...I have a wedding to fly in may in san clemente - after checking the city ordinances I found this dreaded paragraph:

8.82.030 - Prohibited Operations for UA
C. ..... No person shall takeoff, land, or operate a UA on or over private property without the written or electronic consent of the property owner, if the property owner is a person other than the UA operator. When consent to operate a UA is required to takeoff, land, or operate a UA on or over private property, UA operators must have on their possession a copy of the written or electronic consent from the owner of the property, or properties, over which they takeoff, land, or operate a UA.

...I could have sworn that the FAA is the only body that can make this kind of regulation on overflight law? - this pretty much limits me to views looking straight down from within the boundaries of the venue's small property or regular views looking AWAY from the ceremony site...sigh.

...is this enforceable? should I obey and just give up? should I ignore and plead ignorance and forgiveness? suggestions?

...very frustrating!

Not sure what the impediment to your flight is. Get the consent...

 

[MapMaker53]

Those neighbors could be the ones who supported the city ordinance and if so will object to your flying, so what do you do now, whip out the FAA regulations and try to educate them ? Good Luck. I would argue that visiting and asking for permission (mother may I) sets a precedent where the community expects all UAS operators to knock on doors. This lowers the profession to that of a used car salesman and continues the negativity already promoted by the media about us.

Yes, exactly my point. Those neighbors COULD be in support of the local ordinance (if they are even aware of it) and would expect you to have the professional courtesy to come to them and give them a heads up -- not to grovel at their feet as you seem to feel this would be. It's called being a professional. I'm sure the town ordinance was put in place to prevent kids or other idiots who own a drone from "spying" on people -- or at least to quell that concern of the townsfolk. And if you just go ahead and fly as you suggest, you are just GUARANTEEING that a neighboring property will call the police in that town and report a drone. Not a smart approach in my professional opinion. I feel your passion, but I think it is a bit misdirected. Being passive is just ignoring the town ordinance. Introducing yourself to the concerned neighbors is being proactive in this case.

 

[drone Pilot]

I don't sell cars but if I did that comment would genuinely light my fuse. What a rude and condescending comment coming from a "professional"."Try" to make contact with neighboring property when our Commercial sUAS flights might appear to be spying directly on them etc. IMHO it's being very UNPROFESSIONAL to not at least TRY to reach out and make contact to neighbors All the above statements are personal opinions not based on factual evidence. I know many who have been hurt by buying used cars, that is a fact. Appear to be spying, another personal statement and your statement If that's too much work for you then maybe you're in the wrong line of work. is rude and unprofessional for a moderator, who is to remain neutral. Lastly, your recommendations never address the issue or provide a solution to neighbors who refuse to grant permission and still report to local authorities. Read my recommendation.

 

[MapMaker53]

I say its the responsibility of the person who hires you to spread the word in their neighborhood and provide them with a copy of the FAA regs. We all must stand up and stop being passive , if not, we will never get the respect of the community.

Seriously??? You say WE must stand up and stop being passive -- but then you put the responsibility on the bride and groom to educate people about FAA regulations. Come on. If a professional done operator wants the job bad enough he can knock on some doors and be professional. The bride and groom are paying him for his services. If he feels that can't manage to arrange that, he just doesn't take the job.

btw.. Good use of the text size button. Personally, I like to use color.

 

[BigAl07]

All the above statements are personal opinions not based on factual evidence. I know many who have been hurt by buying used cars, that is a fact. Appear to be spying, another personal statement and your statement If that's too much work for you then maybe you're in the wrong line of work. is rude and unprofessional for a moderator, who is to remain neutral. Lastly, your recommendations never address the issue or provide a solution to neighbors who refuse to grant permission and still report to local authorities. Read my recommendation.

A) I am a moderator and when I take MODERATOR ACTION I do remain neutral and fair. With that being said, I am also a member of this forum, a long time member of the sUAS community (almost as long as you've on planet Earth) and as such I am entitled to opinions and allowed to voice them as such.

B) I know people who have been hurt by.... just about anything but that doesn't make me paint everyone with a wide/broad brush and in a derogatory manner. Flying a sUAS for $$$ does not make you or me any better than the man down the road selling cars to support his family. We all put our pants on the same way each morning and head out to our chosen occupation trying to support and better our lives and family the best way we can.

C) I stand by that statement fully. Sometimes we have to go above and beyond what is the MIN in order to do a better job and/or promote our Industry as a Professional and Courteous one. This type of stuff isn't for everyone.

D) By giving some Real World (and profitable experience) I did address the situation AND gave a very viable solution at least to the best of my ability. If a neighbor is set on being Anti-Drone then odds are they will call authorities and the flight will be reported. While the FAA won't be there to assist and the local entity can't restrict NAS movement odds are they will find a local ordinance that is being broken and fine will come forth.

E) Typing larger and IN BOLD does not increase your validity nor is it pleasant to read.

Did I miss anything?

 

[drone Pilot]

A) I am a moderator and when I take MODERATOR ACTION I do remain neutral and fair. With that being said, I am also a member of this forum, a long time member of the sUAS community (almost as long as you've on planet Earth) and as such I am entitled to opinions and allowed to voice them as such.

B) I know people who have been hurt by.... just about anything but that doesn't make me paint everyone with a wide/broad brush and in a derogatory manner. Flying a sUAS for $$$ does not make you or me any better than the man down the road selling cars to support his family. We all put our pants on the same way each morning and head out to our chosen occupation trying to support and better our lives and family the best way we can.

C) I stand by that statement fully. Sometimes we have to go above and beyond what is the MIN in order to do a better job and/or promote our Industry as a Professional and Courteous one. This type of stuff isn't for everyone.

D) By giving some Real World (and profitable experience) I did address the situation AND gave a very viable solution at least to the best of my ability. If a neighbor is set on being Anti-Drone then odds are they will call authorities and the flight will be reported. While the FAA won't be there to assist and the local entity can't restrict NAS movement odds are they will find a local ordinance that is being broken and fine will come forth.

E) Typing larger and IN BOLD does not increase your validity nor is it pleasant to read.

Did I miss anything?

What rule makes typing in bold unpleasant and non-valid ?

 

[BigAl07]

What rule makes typing in bold unpleasant and non-valid ?

Rule? did anyone say anything about a rule?

I didn't say it made it invalid but it does NOT validate your stance by making it bold. Merely stating something louder does not make it accurate.

 

[drone Pilot]

Yes, exactly my point. Those neighbors COULD be in support of the local ordinance (if they are even aware of it) and would expect you to have the professional courtesy to come to them and give them a heads up -- not to grovel at their feet as you seem to feel this would be. It's called being a professional. I'm sure the town ordinance was put in place to prevent kids or other idiots who own a drone from "spying" on people -- or at least to quell that concern of the townsfolk. And if you just go ahead and fly as you suggest, you are just GUARANTEEING that a neighboring property will call the police in that town and report a drone. Not a smart approach in my professional opinion. I feel your passion, but I think it is a bit misdirected. Being passive is just ignoring the town ordinance. Introducing yourself to the concerned neighbors is being proactive in this case.

"you are just GUARANTEEING that a neighboring property will call the police in that town and report a drone." Professional opinions vary and as such you cannot guarantee the action above. Please quote the regulations that states professional standards require notification and if none, police involvement will be the standard.

 

[dronecyclops]

"you are just GUARANTEEING that a neighboring property will call the police in that town and report a drone." Professional opinions vary and as such you cannot guarantee the action above. Please quote the regulations that states professional standards require notification and if none, police involvement will be the standard.

Quite the opposite to me you are insuring that they will not call the police if they know whats going on

 

[drone Pilot]

Quite the opposite to me you are insuring that they will not call the police if they know whats going on

That logic is not an absolute, therefore is non-sequitur. non sequitur is a Latin phrase that means “it doesn’t follow.” Here, non means “not,” and sequitur means “to follow.” It takes place when a difference is created between the principle idea and the conclusion, which finally leads to a fallacy.

 

[BigAl07]

Quite the opposite to me you are insuring that they will not call the police if they know whats going on

I agree. Also if they do call they would have called anyway so you're only out some time. Some people will call no matter if you PAID them not to but the odds are much better than an informed neighbor will be more comfortable and LESS LIKELY to call LEA for over flights.

Much better to be proactive and at least help the odds in your favor rather than sticking your head in the sand and hoping for the best outcome.

 

[MapMaker53]

And I think a person will probably not want to look like a schmuck calling the police when they know that the drone is just being used to photograph a couple of newlyweds at their wedding. Best to let everyone know ahead of time why they will be seeing a drone. I think most people don't like to be surprised by a drone, but if they know it is for a specific purpose there is a good chance they will actually be interested in it. Most people have never actually seen a drone.