Observers

[PatR]

FPV???? What's that? I'm a commercial operator, don't do FPV...thanks for the 107 refresher.
PS- I teach part 107....
PS2- I soloed in 1969, held a Commercial Pilot certificate since 1976...u think I'm qualified?

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I’ve heard of a 1 bagger and a 2 bagger but that takes things to a new level[emoji6].

Reminds me of the ‘70’s when a couple of aerospace guys were covering their heads in a cardboard box sitting on a table to see a box monitor while attempting to fly RC planes with a video camera. None of them had full scale pilot experience to best translate what they were seeing. Some of the results were spectacular.

 

[Earnest Ward]

If I'm flying a plane, I don't need a VO, or anyone else.

Not completely true. If you restrict your field of view while acting as PIC of manned aircraft ("under the hood" while working on your Instrument rating, or logging time for currency) you must have a qualified second in command/"safety pilot" on board (FARs Part 61.55, 61.57 & 91.109). Goggles offer an excellent view of what the drone's camera observes (especially useful when bright sunlight makes seeing a smart device screen problematic), but does so while restricting field of vision. The remote pilot's inability to see what may be to either side, above, below, or behind the aircraft while wearing goggles is why the FAA mandates a VO.

 

[Fred Garvin]

...I can pass the FAA part 107 test with 70%. If I pass my private pilot written with 70%, I go on to be trained by a real instructor and all those mistakes get corrected. Then I need a check ride from an examiner who probably sees the things I missed on the written and pays special attention to my weak areas. But with part #107, I trot off with my 70% score to fly commercially ... so does that mean if I do something wrong (which I missed on the test) that I'm ok, because that was something I missed on the test (but I still got 70%?) I know that's not true...

When I took my test I only missed a couple. The proctor at the exam, a licensed pilot, flight instructor, etc, etc... went over both questions very thoroughly, ensuring I understood what I missed, why I missed it, and that my knowledge and understanding of the subjects was corrected.

If you (or anyone) doesn’t receive this level of support I’d question the value of the test proctor service you used. It’s also something I’d be looking for when choosing a test proctor.

(And I realize you didn’t say that you, personally, scored a 70.....it was just an example)

 

[Fred Garvin]

...The remote pilot's inability to see what may be to either side, above, below, or behind the aircraft while wearing goggles is why the FAA mandates a VO...

It would be nice, in the future, for aircraft to have a small, 360 camera on top of the aircraft....integrated into the visual system so that when wearing goggles, if you look around you also see around....like VR systems do with gaming....or AR systems do as well. The tech is here....just a matter of deploying it.

 

[clolsonus]

It would be nice, in the future, for aircraft to have a small, 360 camera on top of the aircraft....integrated into the visual system so that when wearing goggles, if you look around you also see around....like VR systems do with gaming....or AR systems do as well. The tech is here....just a matter of deploying it.

See and avoid is kind of a crock in full size aviation too. I have a personal story ... maybe the closest I've ever come to not being here right now. I'm not a licensed pilot, but got invited to fly with a friend. We were happily puttering along a victor airway when we ran into some rain drops. My friend saw the drops on the windshield and said "ohh, visibility can go to s*** really quick in rain" so he made the decision to pull a quick 180 and head home .... except we were still on the victor airway at the west bound altitude, now heading eastbound. Before we could get to our new altitude we had a near miss ... someone who had been following us, passed probably 100' below us head on. It happened so fast I wouldn't have had a chance to even blink if we were at the same altitude. That was eye opening so to speak. A drone, a camera ... you can't see anything useful even when the weather is good, and at the speed that full size airplanes move, things happen way too fast for a human to react. So we do some things that sound good on paper and make us feel like we are being proactive, but the reality is that if a bad situation is starting to set itself up, it's going to happen way faster than anyone will be able to react to. The best option is to keep well away from from situation that could go bad (and know ahead of time what those will be.) You can bet if I ever get my full scale license and run into weather on a victor airway ... I'll get myself well clear before turning, and get myself on the right altitude before joining back up. But if someone else is doing the same thing at the same time it could still all go way wrong.

 

[BigAl07]

We built our company and SOPs utilizing and requiring at least one VO and for night of higher risk operations will increase our VO's to meet the need. When we were required to get a 333 every flight under 333 required a VO and we had already built that into our "program".

Having a trained and experienced VO adds a tremendous amount of talent to the team and greatly assists the RPIC with task management. My VO can handle radios, charts/maps, questions, checklists, and last but NOT least handle guests/spectator questions.

Our Emergency Services UAS program also requires a VO (at least one) for every operation. Sometimes I don't have the luxury of an experienced VO so I have to take the time to do some on-site training but even with a newbie it's nice to have someone to help keep a look out for dangers/security issues.

While having a dedicated VO increases the logistics, cost, and equipment required we find it invaluable and a huge boost to the safety of our program. Like anything else YMMV.

 

[R.Perry]

Very interesting insights. It is kind of like how many of us drive our vehicles the posted speed limit? On the freeway it may be 65 (here in California) but we all drive 75 and 80 because the highway patrol don't seem to enforce the speed limit. Years ago I found out us crop dusters weren't the favorite people with the FAA, for a variety of reasons that I won't bore you all with. We learned where we could fudge a little, and where we couldn't. Rules are made to keep people safe, I wouldn't want to fly if there was no one governing how we operate aircraft, I wouldn't want to drive on our highways if I didn't know the police will enforce the rules that endanger other people.
My responsibility is to operate as safely as I possibly can, I have disengaged antonymous flight because I would have overflown a group of people, I have also passed over or close to at a reasonable altitude of people that appeared out of nowhere, or I felt I could pass close to without endangering them.
I think if we are all honest many times we walk a thin line between being illegal and just pushing the envelope a little, what that line is, I honestly not sure when it comes to drone operations. As has already been said, this is the wild west of the drone era, I'm sure many things are going to change in the future.

 

[R.Perry]

FPV???? What's that? I'm a commercial operator, don't do FPV...thanks for the 107 refresher.
PS- I teach part 107....
PS2- I soloed in 1969, held a Commercial Pilot certificate since 1976...u think I'm qualified?

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No Louis, your a pud knocker just like me.

 

[R.Perry]

Not completely true. If you restrict your field of view while acting as PIC of manned aircraft ("under the hood" while working on your Instrument rating, or logging time for currency) you must have a qualified second in command/"safety pilot" on board (FARs Part 61.55, 61.57 & 91.109). Goggles offer an excellent view of what the drone's camera observes (especially useful when bright sunlight makes seeing a smart device screen problematic), but does so while restricting field of vision. The remote pilot's inability to see what may be to either side, above, below, or behind the aircraft while wearing goggles is why the FAA mandates a VO.

Ok, let me start over, if I'm flying VFR, in VFR conditions in most aircraft other than fighters I may have up to 180 degree field of view horizontally and much less vertically. I'm flying my drone I have a 360 degree view around it and of the airspace that was my point. If I'm flying a high wing aircraft I can't see what is above me, a low wing I can't see what is below me. Many years ago two P3s had a mid air collision at Moffett Field California, Why, because the air controller gave them the same runway for landing, neither aircraft could see each other because one was on top of the other. Many of my friends died in that accident, believe me I know how things can go south in a hurry, and sometimes because of no fault of your own. Your visibility is restricted in almost all aircraft.

 

[R.Perry]

It would be nice, in the future, for aircraft to have a small, 360 camera on top of the aircraft....integrated into the visual system so that when wearing goggles, if you look around you also see around....like VR systems do with gaming....or AR systems do as well. The tech is here....just a matter of deploying it.

I don't use googles, and I wouldn't without an qualified observer, but your idea is a very good one.

 

[Fred Garvin]

I don't use googles, and I wouldn't without an qualified observer, but your idea is a very good one.

They make me sick. Sad really. I used to be a roller coaster fanatic. I’ve maintained a season pass to Six Flags since I was 14. No better way to end a stressful day than a stop at the park for a couple quick rides. Not anymore though. 1 ride and I’m sick for an hour. I can’t even ride In the backseat for an extended trip. Started when I turned 50.

@clolsonus I was a Huey Crewchief in the Army. My first mission, a ‘squito wing private, with a SSG trainer along, I saw a fighter jet come in from 4:00 low and zoom under us just 50‘ away. I swear I could see the Pilot look up through the bubble at me!(F16). I said over the comms “Wow! Did you guys see that F16? It flew right under us, it was so cool!”. The pilots looked at each other. The SSG dropped his head, facepalmed his visor. “We’ll talk when we land” was all he or anyone else said. Needless to say I was aggressively briefed on my duties as an observer. It’s not an easy skill to develop, but once you do it is quite effective, scanning and watching for targets. I got pretty good at it after a 100 hours or so. It takes time.....but it’s no joke. Effective observation skills are nice to have when operating a vehicle in a 3D environment.

 

[R.Perry]

Well Fred, that's the Air Force for ya, I Navy pilot would have made it 25 feet. Being a VO in that kind of situation is totally different than a VO for drone operations. One of the early ASW aircraft was the P2VNeptune, it had a bubble Plexiglas nose, the guy they stuck in the nose had multiple jobs, one he was what they called a MAD operator, and observer. As antisubmarine technology changed there was no need of an VO.
As for getting sick, I use to love to do rolls and accelerated stalls but I became disorientated one afternoon and put a stop to it. The FAA doctor told me our inner ears can cause that.

 

[Fred Garvin]

That’s what my doctor told me. With age, our inner ear just doesn’t react as fast anymore, and this disconnect, or lag with visual cues, induces the vertigo.

 

[mfabo]

We purchased a mavic recently and I discovered if it's 100' away and I take my eyes off it for a second, I have a terrible time finding it again in the sky. It's crazy. I can pick out our phantom 4 way easier from a much further distance. How many people actually keep eyes on their drone 100% of the entire flight?

Mavic is hard to track (or hear) once it is that 100' away, and as soon as you take your eyes off to the controller, it's not always easy to find the drone in the sky again. Have VO's could be helpful, but seems you need three: One tracking drone. One monitoring status of drone, and one looking for bystanders that get curious and come in for a look. Not ideal.

 

[R.Perry]

I know each job is different, but the way I deal with people wanting to watch is by moving to a remote location where there is little or no human traffic.
As you stated, my Mavic is much harder to pick up visually than the Inspire. I think the strobe feature is a good one for all drones.
The question I have is what good is a VO, if another aircraft approaches I can hear it coming,. If Med flight needs to come in and land they announce it, plus I can hear the long before they arrive.
In the most part there is no real need for one. I can see more of what my drone is doing FPV that ever watching it.

 

[AH-1G]

IFR hood looks good on you Luis.?