Potential Near Miss with Aircraft- suggestions?

[Alabama Drones]

I am new here- so if this question does not belong here please let me know and/or move it to the correct location:

I am a Part 107 certified operator; but for this particular day I was just taking drone shots of some sailboats on a large lake. I have done this maybe 3 or 4 times. Here was the event.

1) The area is not in a controlled airspace. There were no TFR's indicating any military operations or any indications on the section charts.
2) I was about 5 minutes away from launching the drone- fyi, when taking photos/videos of the boats I do not normally go higher than 200 feet or so- usually more like 100 feet. But I have gone up to 400 feet.
3) I am facing a man and his face suddenly showed surprise right at the same time that a military cargo plane came right over the tops of the trees. I am guessing between 200 to 300 feet. I have flown on them many times and the sound was deafening coming overhead.
4) If they had come maybe 5 minutes later- my drone would have been up in the air and could have been at about the same altitude they were flying.
5) This so shook me up I called the base and was told that it would not happen again as that was the last flight before they were moved to another base- this flight was a going away flight. They called back and said they can fly as low as 300 feet..... I believe he meant it was normal for them to go that low over sparsely populated areas, but I am not sure.


Here are my questions:
1) What did I do wrong? The only thing I can think of is that I did not have complete horizon to horizon view of the sky. The direction they came from was blocked by large trees and they were coming in very low. My line of sight to my drone was unimpeded.
2) Has anyone in the group had a similar experience?
3) I thought that any aircraft (including military) that was not operating in a designated area of operations would have to have a TFR issued warning people.

 

[MapMaker53]

How far were you from the base and runway? Were you in a sparsely populated area? Doesn't sound like it. Based on your description, I don't see anything you did wrong or how you could have avoided that potential incident. It only takes one person to make a mistake to cause an accident. In this case, it sounds like it was the military pilot. In most cases of error, people are just lucky when nothing bad happens. It would be helpful to see exactly where you were on a map.

 

[JMaeding]

Very good post IMO, I have similar questions.
Besides drones, manned aircraft stay on the radio and have radar and messaging systems (sqawk I believe) and so on to tell each other what's going on. Drones....nothing yet. I feel like if I hit a manned plane in an unexpected situation, I would not have a great answer. Its like for rc planes we have designated zones, but quad copters fly anywhere as they don't need runways.

 

[BigAl07]

First off WELCOME to the forum

To get to the meet of this we need to dig a bit deeper into the FAR's than the overly cited 500' statement.

Below is a Copy/Paste directly from the FAA. Be sure to read it in it's entirely and not j:

91.119 Minimum safe altitudes; general
Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft below the
following altitudes:
(a) Anywhere – An altitude allowing, if a power unit fails, an emergency landing without
undue hazard to persons or property on the surface.
(b) Over congested areas – Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over
any open-air assembly of persons, an altitude of 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle
within a horizontal radius of 2,000 feet of the aircraft.
(c) Over other than congested areas – An altitude of 500 feet above the surface except over open water or sparsely populated areas. In that case, the aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure.
(d) Helicopters – Helicopters may be operated at less than the minimums prescribed In paragraph (b) or (c) of this section if the operation is conducted without hazard to persons or property on the surface. In addition, each person operating a helicopter shall comply with routes or altitudes specifically prescribed for helicopters by the Administrator.

This is one of the many reasons why See & Avoid is so important to maintaining Aviation Safety.

 

[JimD]

I am new here- so if this question does not belong here please let me know and/or move it to the correct location:

I am a Part 107 certified operator; but for this particular day I was just taking drone shots of some sailboats on a large lake. I have done this maybe 3 or 4 times. Here was the event.

1) The area is not in a controlled airspace. There were no TFR's indicating any military operations or any indications on the section charts.
2) I was about 5 minutes away from launching the drone- fyi, when taking photos/videos of the boats I do not normally go higher than 200 feet or so- usually more like 100 feet. But I have gone up to 400 feet.
3) I am facing a man and his face suddenly showed surprise right at the same time that a military cargo plane came right over the tops of the trees. I am guessing between 200 to 300 feet. I have flown on them many times and the sound was deafening coming overhead.
4) If they had come maybe 5 minutes later- my drone would have been up in the air and could have been at about the same altitude they were flying.
5) This so shook me up I called the base and was told that it would not happen again as that was the last flight before they were moved to another base- this flight was a going away flight. They called back and said they can fly as low as 300 feet..... I believe he meant it was normal for them to go that low over sparsely populated areas, but I am not sure.


Here are my questions:
1) What did I do wrong? The only thing I can think of is that I did not have complete horizon to horizon view of the sky. The direction they came from was blocked by large trees and they were coming in very low. My line of sight to my drone was unimpeded.
2) Has anyone in the group had a similar experience?
3) I thought that any aircraft (including military) that was not operating in a designated area of operations would have to have a TFR issued warning people.

Yes welcome to the forum.
I’d be willing to bet you miss judged as altitude it’s very difficult to tell when you have no idea about the size of the aircraft. A large military aircraft even at 1000 feet is going to seem like it’s right on top of you

When he said they can’t fly at 300 feet I think he meant it.

 

[Ajkm]

A very good example of why we need to carry an aeronautical radio or scanner - we should always be tuned in and listening on the local frequency so that we maintain situational awareness of the other aviation operations around us.

 

[Ajkm]

Yes welcome to the forum.
I’d be willing to bet you miss judged as altitude it’s very difficult to tell when you have no idea about the size of the aircraft. A large military aircraft even at 1000 feet is going to seem like it’s right on top of you

When he said they can’t fly at 300 feet I think he meant it.

"...they *can* fly as low as 300ft..."

 

[John Githens]

I am new here- so if this question does not belong here please let me know and/or move it to the correct location:

I am a Part 107 certified operator; but for this particular day I was just taking drone shots of some sailboats on a large lake. I have done this maybe 3 or 4 times. Here was the event.

1) The area is not in a controlled airspace. There were no TFR's indicating any military operations or any indications on the section charts.
2) I was about 5 minutes away from launching the drone- fyi, when taking photos/videos of the boats I do not normally go higher than 200 feet or so- usually more like 100 feet. But I have gone up to 400 feet.
3) I am facing a man and his face suddenly showed surprise right at the same time that a military cargo plane came right over the tops of the trees. I am guessing between 200 to 300 feet. I have flown on them many times and the sound was deafening coming overhead.
4) If they had come maybe 5 minutes later- my drone would have been up in the air and could have been at about the same altitude they were flying.
5) This so shook me up I called the base and was told that it would not happen again as that was the last flight before they were moved to another base- this flight was a going away flight. They called back and said they can fly as low as 300 feet..... I believe he meant it was normal for them to go that low over sparsely populated areas, but I am not sure.


Here are my questions:
1) What did I do wrong? The only thing I can think of is that I did not have complete horizon to horizon view of the sky. The direction they came from was blocked by large trees and they were coming in very low. My line of sight to my drone was unimpeded.
2) Has anyone in the group had a similar experience?
3) I thought that any aircraft (including military) that was not operating in a designated area of operations would have to have a TFR issued warning people.

Thanks for starting the thread. I've occasionally wondered how the FAA authors could use only words, with no visual examples, to describe "sparsely populated areas". And the authors were probably not thinking about the viewpoint of multirotor drone operators.

From my experience, where I typically operate, it is disquieting that unanticipated situations will occur. There's enough things that can go wrong, and on top of that... is what other human beings may do with an aircraft. My preference is to stay at or below the nearest treetops, especially the trees on ridges or hills. I feel that I have far more control over a multirotor drone than the pilot of a much larger aircraft. Practically speaking, it's entirely up to me the operator to avoid an accident or incident in airspace. Hard to expect any pilot to be constantly looking down to rigorously evaluate the areas below during a flight, to determine if more altitude should be gained.

A few examples:
- sightseeing helicopters
- pilots training pilots-to-be (like the one that appeared very low from around some trees and cut the engine while gliding over homes).
- ultralights
- pilots who don't read a NOTAM
- pilots who take a long time to gain altitude from a runway

While putting off things that I should be doing, I found an interesting and relatively thoughtful thread of comments by pilots trying to interpret FAA writings. Gets more interesting on page 2.

Minimum altitudes - Anyone know the FAA's definition?

Does anyone know what the FAA's definition of the following is? 1. "congested area" 2. "uncongested area" 3. "sparsely populated area" Is there any specific guidance on what "congested" is to mean so that it's not subjective and debatable? I thought I was clear on this until I read the CFR and...

www.pilotsofamerica.com

 

[JimD]

"...they *can* fly as low as 300ft..."

LOL in case you didn’t realize this can’t does not always mean unable to.
Sometimes it means you’re not allowed to or should not.
As in “I’m gonna kill my wife” -But you can’t (Because you would go to jail).

 

[mdurbanek]

I have addressed this before, but the topic requires revisiting.

A couple of years ago during a job walk at a winery, the manager and I were standing in the rear of the project, close to the two-story fermenting building. Suddenly a helicopter roared overhead from behind the building. That copter was no more than 50' above the building. I was startled, but the manager said "It's those tourist helicopters. Happens all the time".

I was already concerned about flying there, since we were a mile away from a non-towered GA airport. Most of my assignment was terrestrial photography, but you can be assured that when I did fly, I got up, took the shot, and came right back down, my eyes and ears wide open the whole time.

It wasn't my first experience with copters. I got buzzed shooting a golf course once too, and that bastard knew exactly what he was doing. I don't trust those guys.

 

[Ajkm]

LOL in case you didn’t realize this can’t does not always mean unable to.
Sometimes it means you’re not allowed to or should not.
As in “I’m gonna kill my wife” -But you can’t (Because you would go to jail).

I was pointing out that the OP said he had been told that they *can* (i.e. are allowed to) fly as low as 300 ft. The OP was not told that they *can't* fly at that height.

 

[Ajkm]

I think a lot of these reports of "flying at x ft above my head" are rather erroneous. It's really not at all easy to make an accurate assessment of AGL height when one is looking up at an aircraft. Perspective has many distorting aspects to it. So all "it was only x ft" need to be taken with a large pinch of salt, because they are invariably wrong.

 

[LeadSledGirl-CDP]

Could we unpack OP #3 comment regarding TFRs?

If I had to make a guess this is probably coming out of a blurring of Victor airways, Military Training Routes (MTRs), MOAs, and other special use airspace ‘conditions’. While the victor airways do get likened to ‘roadways in the sky’ there is nothing saying an aircraft has to stay on the ‘road’. There’s a lot of ‘offroading’ going on up there!

I’m sure someone else can explain this much better than me so please jump in:

In short, an aircraft operator does not file a TFR for their operation just because they are generically flying somewhere. A TFR designates where aircraft may NOT operate. TFR’s are put in place for things like VIP movement (heads of state), to clear the airspace for safe operations of emergency response craft (fire fighting aircraft), large gatherings of people in stadiums (super bowl, other sporting events), special event air space use (there’s a TFR over the operations area for the National Championship Air Races every year), rocket launches, etc.

From the UAS point of view: https://www.faa.gov/uas/getting_started/temporary_flight_restrictions/

TFR website: Federal Aviation Administration - Graphic TFR's

(I have seen explicit statement from AirMap that they do show TFRs. What I don’t have confidence in is will they show me any NOTAMS for my proposed operation area?)

Special Use Airspace (SUA): Special Use Airspace & Air Traffic Control Assigned Airspace

Airspace/Sectional Review:

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

I second the posts suggesting an air band radio Aviation Radios I have the PJ2 w/the lithium battery. The battery lasts forever because you’re just listening. Transmitting is what starts sucking the battery down. I know several people very happy with their Yaesu radios (which are a bit smaller than the PJ2).

Once you have your radio what do you listen to? Where I am located we have one airport that is Class C and another that is Class D. If I’m not in either class airspace (or their approaches) I listen to the CTAF channel for the airport I’m in the vicinity of. If Class C/D but not close to the airport, I listen to NorCal Approach (north or south as appropriate).

You could use the LiveATC app (which will also aggregate multiple frequencies) until you get a radio but be aware, there is a lag in transmission, upwards of 5 seconds so the position statements you hear via LiveATC will be stale and there may not be a ‘station’ for small airports.

Some apps show you manned aircraft in your area (Flight Aware, Flight Radar24 etc), I think I’ve seen some mention that some of the drone apps are starting to show manned traffic and some of the smart controllers may be adding the feature. None of that would probably have helped in your situation as those apps rely on ADS-B data which military aircraft frequently aren’t squawking. These are just some additional tools that may help with situational awareness but are not silver bullets.

 

[skiptv]

Drones must yield the right of way to ALL aircraft. Doesn’t matter if he was below a published altitude and hit you. It’s up to the drone pilot no matter what to avoid all aircraft.

 

[Snowghost]

I think a lot of these reports of "flying at x ft above my head" are rather erroneous. It's really not at all easy to make an accurate assessment of AGL height when one is looking up at an aircraft. Perspective has many distorting aspects to it. So all "it was only x ft" need to be taken with a large pinch of salt, because they are invariably wrong.

I like to guess altitudes of passing aircraft and then check on FR24. That single engine Cessna or the like is usually much higher than I thought. Doing this though will help you when you can't check ADS-B while flying.

 

[R.Perry]

I was a crop duster many years ago, long before drones. Many times when transiting from one location to another I would never get over 200 ft, and of course that was only in non controlled airspace and away from any populated areas. In todays world I see ag pilots doing the same thing, and they need to realize that 200-300 feet is a common flight altitude for drone operations.
What wasn't addressed here is the op should have been able to hear the aircraft well before it overflew him. Radio communication is a good idea, but how are you going to know what frequency an aircraft flying VFR in a remote area may be monitoring? 121.5 is the emergency frequency, but you don't want to be broadcasting on it unless there is a true emergency. Military aircraft also use many different frequencies and most likely aren't going to be announcing their intentions and location.