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R.Perry

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I don't watch much TV, but a friend brought a movie over. It was about the predator, and more about the people flying them. Sitting in Nevada flying mission over Iraq. It also dealt with the psychological effects on these people. Stop and think about it, sitting a cubicle, blowing up a bunch of people then walking out and going home for dinner. They not only see the bad guys get blown up, but they see the collateral aftermath. So much different than your regular attack aircraft pilot, he goes in hits a target and really doesn't see the immediate results of the destruction he just created. Once the smoke clears the predator pilots can zoom in, and see exactly the effects of their hellfire missile. I know I wouldn't want the job.
 
It’s not an easy job for a whole lot of reasons, and generates a helluva lot more baggage than a video game.
 
Honestly, in my mind, I don't seem to have a problem with doing that in the war against terrorists. Concern over some collateral damage over there? I doubt if many New Yorkers are concerned about that after what happened here on 9/11 and all the lives that have been lost since. Sign me up for flight school.
 
Honestly, in my mind, I don't seem to have a problem with doing that in the war against terrorists. Concern over some collateral damage over there? I doubt if many New Yorkers are concerned about that after what happened here on 9/11 and all the lives that have been lost since. Sign me up for flight school.

If you are a young man with a college education go for it. Many people say they can do things based on their presuppositions, however, fantasy and reality is too extremely different things. When I went in the Navy I wanted to be a fighter pilot, thank God I wasn't, I never had to kill anyone. It was during the cold war, we were an ASW squadron (Anti Submarine Warfare), I knew the potential was there that I might need to destroy a submarine. That would be killing a lot of people all at once. You can call them the enemy, but they are still people. The thing is, if that had happened I wouldn't see the results, but these guys flying predators see the results, get the body count including women and children.
 
If you are a young man with a college education go for it. Many people say they can do things based on their presuppositions, however, fantasy and reality is too extremely different things.


The red text is what it comes down to. After 9/11 the initial outrage made it pretty easy to justify almost anything, including our "Patriot Act". Over time an intelligent person, hopefully, thinks about things and reviews facts, data, legal developments in different areas, developing markets, corporate strategies, and a few other things that cause a picture to lose its clarity. When you are part of the kill chain that takes lives of people you know are innocent it gets a lot harder to stomach. It's easy to talk glibly about "collateral damage" but when you take the lives of children and blame their deaths on being associated with a "bad guy" it gets hard to sleep at night. What you have seen and done never, ever goes away. That part of what PTSD is made of.

If we take a step back and look at what has been taking place for the past decade we might come to the conclusion that thousands of people have been killed that have never set foot in our country or had any involvement with "terrorism" in our country. Their primary "guilt" has been in disobeying rules and resisting controls placed upon them by an occupying power. Afghanistan is very much an example of a conquering power imposing it's will on a perceived "weaker" country. After bin Laden was killed we had no further reason to maintain a presence in Afghanistan. Our only purpose from that point on was to force them to shape their government to one more in alignment with ours and to obtain something we want or need. Comply or die. Afghani’s don’t have much need for a government as their religion is the foundation of their lives, not government, and the people are largely self sufficient. The fact that we, like so many "conquerors" before us, has failed suggests what we are doing is not what their population wants, or will tolerate. Yes, we have most definitely failed, with the only reason for our continued presence being to keep the flow of money moving between defense related businesses and various nationality government related personnel.

Why try to force populations of other countries to our will? In my mind it comes down to power and control over a people in order to take something from them. The very few people that have made the decisions that placed and keep us in these countries, along with the decisions to kill everyone that defies them, are very, very accustomed to an extremely high standard of living that is financed by the people over which they rule. Governments can't function without money and governments obtain their money from the people they "govern", or from people that leverage a government to give, award,guaraantee them something they want. Iraq is another that was of little threat to the U.S. Very much defiant but not a threat considering that most of their military might was decimated during the Kuwaiti conflict. Unfortunately ISIS was created by a failure to "follow through" in Iraq. The decapitation of the government and quick departure created a power vacuum, much like the one that was created in Libya. We should not forget how Libya was handled. Nature abhors a vacuum.

So having spent plenty of time in both Iraq and Afghanistan, along with some other unpleasant locations, so I'm afraid my perception of what we have been doing has become more than a little jaded. I've seen and done too much to think for one hot second that what we are doing is for the benefit of the people that live in the countries we have tried to decimate. Shoot, people don't have any understanding of their cultures. If we did we would not have gone about things the way we have as in so doing we have created multiple generations of people that will never forget or forgive, seeking vengeance until it is satisfied. Their culture does not allow forgiveness.
 
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Honestly, in my mind, I don't seem to have a problem with doing that in the war against terrorists. Concern over some collateral damage over there? I doubt if many New Yorkers are concerned about that after what happened here on 9/11 and all the lives that have been lost since. Sign me up for flight school.
War against terror ... or a program to ensure there are plenty more terrorists for the future?
 
Depends on the side of the fence you are standing on. If a country invaded the U.S. and defeated us, would continued resistance on our part to regain our way of life classify us “insurgents” and terrorists?

That was the most interesting part of my overseas work. I got to spend time with the people, both Republican Guard and suspected Taliban, and learn about their cultures and points of view. We aren’t that much different, only grossly more arrogant and greedy.
 
If you are a young man with a college education go for it. Many people say they can do things based on their presuppositions, however, fantasy and reality is too extremely different things.

Depends on the side of the fence you are standing on. If a country invaded the U.S. and defeated us, would continued resistance on our part to regain our way of life classify us “insurgents” and terrorists?

That was the most interesting part of my overseas work. I got to spend time with the people, both Republican Guard and suspected Taliban, and learn about their cultures and points of view. We aren’t that much different, only grossly more arrogant and greedy.

I’m way past the “age” of acceptance, although if this type of position was available back in the late 70’s & 80’s; I’d be in the Ft of the line. I was focused on heli’s and got booted over to MI Spec Ops due to height exceeding pilot’s seat. Turned out still an adventure to enjoy, still got back seat time among other activities.

But to fly this machine and it’s weapons would be a new adventure to enjoy. Located in States would work, but I’d prefer more near the events to maintain the environment & scent. I think Stateside is actually a negative variable, maybe not for the B1 crew that has a extended long flight mission, but the Predator crews a negative. I have a few reservations on the open cellular homeward communication of modern military... personally don’t feel it’s beneficial unmanaged... just an older opinion. My personal feeling, if you hear your Gal or Guy back home every day it increases the wrong emotions and effects your mental focus & attitude. I feel it contributes to later problems back home.

This new technology is absolutely envious, for the young aerial warrior, this is awesome to the 10th power! If they opened it up to old retired farts... get outa the way, I’m taking the stairs! How fricken exciting, If you remove the G-force limitation, the death variable... and improve the technology... for many it would increase the fight attitude.

This is coming from a youthful motivated Scottish heritage Lad growing up with memories of Air Force TAC base, watching Sabers, Corsairs, & Phantoms... Dad was a flight surgeon and later inspired by hearing his Corbra flying Uncle tell his tales of tracking them down, staging assault, watching the aftermath and later hovering off deck inspecting & sowing up loose ends. He enjoyed the opportunity so much, he helped develop the UH1B as gun ships and pulled to Rucker to assist in Corbra development and later commanded several Corbra Units in country... 6 tours.

I might be a bit on the “raw” side, I grew up with a mortician grandpa, ortho leading dad, and military & military... acceptance of death, blood & cause all serve in conditioning & attitudes.

Truly envious of the Young Aerial Warrior and opportunities new technology offers... Wow, what an opportunity to pursue! In peace time People, combative are Targets or Objectives.
 
The red text is what it comes down to. After 9/11 the initial outrage made it pretty easy to justify almost anything, including our "Patriot Act". Over time an intelligent person, hopefully, thinks about things and reviews facts, data, legal developments in different areas, developing markets, corporate strategies, and a few other things that cause a picture to lose its clarity. When you are part of the kill chain that takes lives of people you know are innocent it gets a lot harder to stomach. It's easy to talk glibly about "collateral damage" but when you take the lives of children and blame their deaths on being associated with a "bad guy" it gets hard to sleep at night. What you have seen and done never, ever goes away. That part of what PTSD is made of.

If we take a step back and look at what has been taking place for the past decade we might come to the conclusion that thousands of people have been killed that have never set foot in our country or had any involvement with "terrorism" in our country. Their primary "guilt" has been in disobeying rules and resisting controls placed upon them by an occupying power. Afghanistan is very much an example of a conquering power imposing it's will on a perceived "weaker" country. After bin Laden was killed we had no further reason to maintain a presence in Afghanistan. Our only purpose from that point on was to force them to shape their government to one more in alignment with ours and to obtain something we want or need. Comply or die. Afghani’s don’t have much need for a government as their religion is the foundation of their lives, not government, and the people are largely self sufficient. The fact that we, like so many "conquerors" before us, has failed suggests what we are doing is not what their population wants, or will tolerate. Yes, we have most definitely failed, with the only reason for our continued presence being to keep the flow of money moving between defense related businesses and various nationality government related personnel.

Why try to force populations of other countries to our will? In my mind it comes down to power and control over a people in order to take something from them. The very few people that have made the decisions that placed and keep us in these countries, along with the decisions to kill everyone that defies them, are very, very accustomed to an extremely high standard of living that is financed by the people over which they rule. Governments can't function without money and governments obtain their money from the people they "govern", or from people that leverage a government to give, award,guaraantee them something they want. Iraq is another that was of little threat to the U.S. Very much defiant but not a threat considering that most of their military might was decimated during the Kuwaiti conflict. Unfortunately ISIS was created by a failure to "follow through" in Iraq. The decapitation of the government and quick departure created a power vacuum, much like the one that was created in Libya. We should not forget how Libya was handled. Nature abhors a vacuum.

So having spent plenty of time in both Iraq and Afghanistan, along with some other unpleasant locations, so I'm afraid my perception of what we have been doing has become more than a little jaded. I've seen and done too much to think for one hot second that what we are doing is for the benefit of the people that live in the countries we have tried to decimate. Shoot, people don't have any understanding of their cultures. If we did we would not have gone about things the way we have as in so doing we have created multiple generations of people that will never forget or forgive, seeking vengeance until it is satisfied. Their culture does not allow forgiveness.
I fully follow and understand your position and agree in many ways. It is disheartening the human race has always positioned itself in a competitive, ruling, controlling philosophy. If any culture took a peaceful non-agressive position in historical times, they were eliminated or ruled.

In present time, Peaceful societies may be short run on the timeline. It’s hopeful it’d succeed but probably more disappointment that ends in combative aggression... it takes 2 major forces to agree on the same outcome, and eventually proves it’s not human behavior; one may desire peaceful tranquility but if the other disagrees, only 2 options... one doesn’t matter in the end if ceases to exist.

We as a country have exerted ourselves more than we probably should toward other countries, but it’s also a certainty if we disarm and sit peacefully, it’d be the first day of our take over and new rule.

Humans always desire peace, and always encourage confrontation.
 
Depends on the side of the fence you are standing on. If a country invaded the U.S. and defeated us, would continued resistance on our part to regain our way of life classify us “insurgents” and terrorists?

That was the most interesting part of my overseas work. I got to spend time with the people, both Republican Guard and suspected Taliban, and learn about their cultures and points of view. We aren’t that much different, only grossly more arrogant and greedy.
"We aren’t that much different, " You are right, we Americans are just as bad. Sorry, my reply would be longer but I'm busy. There's a little girl down the block who needs a good beating...see, she wants to go to school.
 
We as a country have exerted ourselves more than we probably should toward other countries, but it’s also a certainty if we disarm and sit peacefully, it’d be the first day of our take over and new rule.

Humans always desire peace, and always encourage confrontation.

I think many hear came from the Vietnam era as I did. I was never in country but participated in ASW patrols and attempting to irritate the Russian subs. We should have learned a lesson from Vietnam, but it is obvious we didn't. I had no problem initially after 911, we had to strike back. But now we have been involved in these Arab countries problems way too long. Those people have been fighting with each other since Mohammad showed up and their not going to stop anytime soon.

America was founded by fighting through the revolutionary war, the civil war, the WWI and WWII, Korea, Vietnam, and now we are making a career out of messing with the middle east. We consider ourselves the toughest kid on the block, but are we really. Even if we are, what are we accomplishing, we are filling our VA hospitals with injured soldiers and those that could no longer cope with combat.

We as Americans can never take a passive stance with aggression, besides, it isn't in our blood. But we also don't need to be the world police force, let the UN do that, but they are pretty much impudent.
 
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I think many hear came from the Vietnam era as I did. I was never in country but participated in ASW patrols and attempting to irritate the Russian subs. We should have learned a lesson from Vietnam, but it is obvious we didn't. I had no problem initially after 911, we had to strike back. But now we have been involved in these Arab countries problems way too long. Those people have been fighting with each other since Mohammad showed up and their not going to stop anytime soon.

America was founded by fighting through the revolutionary war, the civil war, the WWI and WWII, Korea, Vietnam, and now we are making a career out of messing with the middle east. We consider ourselves the toughest kid on the block, but are we really. Even if we are, what are we accomplishing, we are filling our VA hospitals with injured soldiers and those that could no longer cope with combat.

We as Americans can never take a passive stance with aggression, besides, it isn't in our blood. But we also don't need to be the world police force, let the UN do that, but they are pretty much impudent.
Very well stated... and I'd agree on all points.
As you indicate, we shouldn't be the world police, but somewhere in the 70's with little spotty activities scattered around the world that UN didn't want to react strongly, we assumed that role and continued it informally onward. The Kuwait war was a prime example where it was a UN action but 95% USA. If we're to be the world police the cost shouldn't be the tax payer and our fallen should receive some form of compensation from the country that retained all it's wealth.

I personally feel after 20 yrs of constant engagement, our forces our tired while other forces haven't engaged in over 15 years are fresh & eager. Our challenge of the "Best" hasn't been challenged for sometime and it's concerning when you consider the small percentage willing to join forces to defend compared to the large percentage wanting others to defend. In comparison to many other countries, our society is softer than 25 yrs ago, that too is a concern. I do feel others forces are in play now, but patiently waiting to let the opponent weaken itself.
 
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but patiently waiting to let the opponent weaken itself.

As long as the opponent can sway public opinion in their favor by saying toys and the junk we buy at WalMart is going to be more expensive that ain’t gonna happen.

In a war of attrition the victor is usually the one with the most patience and resources they can afford to sacrifice. That is not us.
 
As long as the opponent can sway public opinion in their favor by saying toys and the junk we buy at WalMart is going to be more expensive that ain’t gonna happen.

In a war of attrition the victor is usually the one with the most patience and resources they can afford to sacrifice. That is not us.
That is true... and re-reading my stmt.. I was saying the "other" forces are patiently waiting for "us" to weaken... and we've been doing well with that on our own decay.
 
"We aren’t that much different, " You are right, we Americans are just as bad. Sorry, my reply would be longer but I'm busy. There's a little girl down the block who needs a good beating...see, she wants to go to school.

We aren’t much different. Each wants to have full bellies, a roof over their heads, see their children grow up to generate grand children, and the ability to live their own lives safely.

So what has to change to make that happen? Change Christianity or change their religion? That’s what it comes down to, the way a couple different religions have indoctrinated their followers for a couple thousand years. Pretty darn hard to find fault with anything when people believe their actions are part of God’s word. On either side.

One culture insisting their way is the only way, comply or die, hasn’t worked out very well over human history. The other conflict generator, greed and the attitude of “I want what you have so I’ll just take it”, hasn’t worked as well as some hoped either. Eventually people start killing each other. But that is the one thing humans have established they are consistently good at. Killing other people.

I certainly don’t condone what they do but am I so arrogant as to think what I believe is better? Well, I suppose I am but do I believe I have the right and responsibility to kill people that believe differently? I do not although I’ve participated in the activity. But I was younger and drank the Kool Aid back then. Those that believe they have the right should put themselves at risk and get up close and personal in the execution of their belief instead of using remote technologies and our youth to do the dirty work to assure the personal safety of decision makers.

Anyone that believes we are maintaining a military presence in Iraq and Afghanistan because we want to help and protect the people are extremely naive’. Anyone that thinks our general population cares a twit has the same problem. Where are all our Women’s Rights groups throwing their weight around to benefit the Middle Eastern woman?

The conflicts are about money, natural resources, and personal power. “The people” is just a couple words bandied about for an appearance of having a just cause.
 
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The conflicts are about money, natural resources, and personal power. “The people” is just a couple words bandied about for an appearance of having a just cause.
Personal & Govt Power and.... the Prevention of Other obtaining that Power & Resource. Power & Resources!
 
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We aren’t much different. Each wants to have full bellies, a roof over their heads, see their children grow up to generate grand children, and the ability to live their own lives safely.

So what has to change to make that happen? Change Christianity or change their religion? That’s what it comes down to, the way a couple different religions have indoctrinated their followers for a couple thousand years. Pretty darn hard to find fault with anything when people believe their actions are part of God’s word. On either side.

One culture insisting their way is the only way, comply or die, hasn’t worked out very well over human history. The other conflict generator, greed and the attitude of “I want what you have so I’ll just take it”, hasn’t worked as well as some hoped either. Eventually people start killing each other. But that is the one thing humans have established they are consistently good at. Killing other people.

I certainly don’t condone what they do but am I so arrogant as to think what I believe is better? Well, I suppose I am but do I believe I have the right and responsibility to kill people that believe differently? I do not although I’ve participated in the activity. But I was younger and drank the Kool Aid back then. Those that believe they have the right should put themselves at risk and get up close and personal in the execution of their belief instead of using remote technologies and our youth to do the dirty work to assure the personal safety of decision makers.

Anyone that believes we are maintaining a military presence in Iraq and Afghanistan because we want to help and protect the people are extremely naive’. Anyone that thinks our general population cares a twit has the same problem. Where are all our Women’s Rights groups throwing their weight around to benefit the Middle Eastern woman?

The conflicts are about money, natural resources, and personal power. “The people” is just a couple words bandied about for an appearance of having a just cause.
So we are no different than the Taliban, Al Quaida? Does your moral relativism have no limits?
 

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