Surveying questions

[mabanc]

Hey guys, any recommendations on what software to use for surveying land?Trying to get into this part of droning. Thank you!!

 

[BigAl07]

First off WELCOME to the forum!

Unless you are an actual credentialed Land Surveyor you don't even want to kid about "Surveying with a drone". The term I think you're looking for is either Photogrammetry or Orthomosaics.

There is a law suit in the court system right now that could have a MAJOR outcome on this specific portion of the industry. The judge is supposed to start "hearing arguments" on the 24th of this month and they "estimate" to have a final ruling in 6 months or so.

 

[mabanc]

First off WELCOME to the forum!

Unless you are an actual credentialed Land Surveyor you don't even want to kid about "Surveying with a drone". The term I think you're looking for is either Photogrammetry or Orthomosaics.

There is a law suit in the court system right now that could have a MAJOR outcome on this specific portion of the industry. The judge is supposed to start "hearing arguments" on the 24th of this month and they "estimate" to have a final ruling in 6 months or so.

Thank you! Don’t you know how we can keep up with that case online?

 

[BigAl07]

Thank you! Don’t you know how we can keep up with that case online?

Not really. The Defendant is a friend and colleague or mine so I'll update as it happens.

Here's an article an Aviation Attorney wrote about it but it's not up-to-date:

- Drone Law and Drone Attorney Assistance

The Plaintiff offered certain types of services (for example, “weekly flyovers of the developer’s property, capture images, stitch the images together using computer software, and provide [developer] with an updated orthomosaic picture of his property”) that the North Carolina Board of Examiners...

jrupprechtlaw.com

 

[MapMaker53]

They're worried about a guy with a drone taking a bunch of downward facing pictures? They're going to crap in their pants when A.I. starts putting surveyors and engineers out of work. The drone operator is doing nothing different than what Google Earth does. He just does it better within a limited area. A ruling against him would not only set a precedence against Google Earth, but also any manned aerial photography company, NASA, etc. IMO It'll never happen.

 

[jaja6009]

Not really. The Defendant is a friend and colleague or mine so I'll update as it happens.

Here's an article an Aviation Attorney wrote about it but it's not up-to-date:

- Drone Law and Drone Attorney Assistance

The Plaintiff offered certain types of services (for example, “weekly flyovers of the developer’s property, capture images, stitch the images together using computer software, and provide [developer] with an updated orthomosaic picture of his property”) that the North Carolina Board of Examiners...

jrupprechtlaw.com

I thought this case was resolved?
I guess apparently not.

I fully understand how a PLS is needed for many legal things.
Where the N. Carolina board is really going nuts is some of the other items they are considering "surveying" to include any aerial image with coordinates and elevations in the metadata. This would cover any real estate image as well as a lot of other images taken with a modern digital camera.

There are similar lawsuits that will popup with drones as a disruptor. Deer harvesting is going to have a court showdown in several states.

 

[Wanderlost]

The only reasonable outcome from this should be that unlicensed operators include in their maps and advertising that they are not licensed land surveyors and that the data created should not be used for legal or contract purposes.

 

[John Githens]

It can be educational to review the long list of litigation activities on this rupprechtlaw.com page.

 

[Wavepilot]

I received a $600 fine from the Florida Department of Agriculture in 2020 for using the words "surveying" and "mapping" on my website as an unlicensed surveyor.

I officially disputed the citation explaining that I immediately changed the wording on the website and at no time did I ever hold out to the public to conduct surveys as an officially licensed or certified surveying professional. I never heard anything back, so I assume the citation was withdrawn.

Interestingly, during the previous year, I did some test map work with GCPs for an official surveying company that was curious about the new drone mapping technology. They paid me for the maps I created and then they went curiously silent. I wondered if the surveying industry and their lobbyists were threatened by the new technology and applied pressure to the state regulators to aggressively go after drone service providers.

Anyway, my lesson learned is that I now use the words "orthomosaic photograph" instead of "orthomosaic map", and "site analysis" instead of "site survey" in all of my media and communications and I've received no citations or cease and desists since, if that helps anyone considering verbiage to avoid misrepresentation.

And thanks, BigA107, for the lawsuit information. I'll be following this case with interest.

 

[Wanderlost]

It can be educational to review the long list of litigation activities on this rupprechtlaw.com page.

That was very enlightening reading. My favorite quote was this one:

"Another take away is that the FAA treats 91.13(a) like bacon, they put it on everything to make it better."

 

[Airmapper]

You have a lot of research to do because "surveying land" is very non specific wording so you first need to know what you are dealing with. A drone is but one tool in a surveyors bag of tricks, you won't be doing any complete survey with a drone. Some portions of it may be acquired by drone, but you will never do say, boundary work with one. You aren't going to survey a sewer line with one either.

I do this work under a PLS/PLE and I can tell you for certain lots of places are using some drone derived products without a surveyor. One thing I see is we don't sell it as "drone surveys" unless it's to impress the client. Some of our clients never know we used a drone for parts of our surveys nor does it matter. We use a veriety of tools, the drone is just one. My work truck is loaded with survey GNSS equipment in addition to drones, and on any given site I may use both for different things. It's all just collecting data, it's how and what you do with it that matters.

Those issues of "survey" or "mapping" are entirely legal in nature and there is no difference in what you might do making an Orthomap and me doing a "Survey." So definately play with it, just be careful trying to sell it. You would be best off selling it to a PLS/PLE enginneering company, if they trust it they will throw thier stamp on it and boom it's a "survey" you are no different than a field crew working for them. I've done drone work for other survey companies than the one I work for, we just bill them for my services and I do the parts of thier survey best accomplished by drone.

For orthomapping/photogrammetry software, WebODM (Open drone map) is a good place to start. I paid out of pocket for the install files, it wasn't that expensive, but it's a free program if you want to tinker with compiling it. They do have a nice program going. If you can work with ODM almost any commercial software will be easier to handle. My go to now is Carlson Photo Capture.

What is harder and more $$$ is a survey grade GNSS setup for accurate GCPs. A RTK enabled drone will help but it's no end all for accuracy if you can't have check points you are confident in. You can maybe get a hacked together rig for around $1000 or so with something like Ardusimple. There is a learning curve to that also.

I also do lidar scanning, that is high end and high dollar. You can play with Photogrammetry with almost any drone and inexpensive equipment. I'd start there.

One reason I'm so embedded in survey work with a drone is I have many years experience doing CAD work and Part 107 credentials. One thing I stress to anyone wanting to get into survey type work with a drone is flying a drone is only a tiny portion of the skillset you need to have. Frankly even the people I work with every day, including Engineers, barely grasp what the drone data can and can't do. And it's always a flip flop between it's junk data they don't trust no matter how accurate it is, or it's capable of miracles and seeing underground and will take me all of ten minutes with 8 of them being prep time. You fight uphill with these people every day and they have little idea what you do, they don't mean any harm, it's just hard to convey what is involved and one thing I stress is thats my job, I figure all that out, you just outline what you need, I get what is possible.

 

[BigAl07]

You have a lot of research to do because "surveying land" is very non specific wording so you first need to know what you are dealing with. A drone is but one tool in a surveyors bag of tricks, you won't be doing any complete survey with a drone. Some portions of it may be acquired by drone, but you will never do say, boundary work with one. You aren't going to survey a sewer line with one either.

I do this work under a PLS/PLE and I can tell you for certain lots of places are using some drone derived products without a surveyor. One thing I see is we don't sell it as "drone surveys" unless it's to impress the client. Some of our clients never know we used a drone for parts of our surveys nor does it matter. We use a veriety of tools, the drone is just one. My work truck is loaded with survey GNSS equipment in addition to drones, and on any given site I may use both for different things. It's all just collecting data, it's how and what you do with it that matters.

Those issues of "survey" or "mapping" are entirely legal in nature and there is no difference in what you might do making an Orthomap and me doing a "Survey." So definately play with it, just be careful trying to sell it. You would be best off selling it to a PLS/PLE enginneering company, if they trust it they will throw thier stamp on it and boom it's a "survey" you are no different than a field crew working for them. I've done drone work for other survey companies than the one I work for, we just bill them for my services and I do the parts of thier survey best accomplished by drone.

For orthomapping/photogrammetry software, WebODM (Open drone map) is a good place to start. I paid out of pocket for the install files, it wasn't that expensive, but it's a free program if you want to tinker with compiling it. They do have a nice program going. If you can work with ODM almost any commercial software will be easier to handle. My go to now is Carlson Photo Capture.

What is harder and more $$$ is a survey grade GNSS setup for accurate GCPs. A RTK enabled drone will help but it's no end all for accuracy if you can't have check points you are confident in. You can maybe get a hacked together rig for around $1000 or so with something like Ardusimple. There is a learning curve to that also.

I also do lidar scanning, that is high end and high dollar. You can play with Photogrammetry with almost any drone and inexpensive equipment. I'd start there.

One reason I'm so embedded in survey work with a drone is I have many years experience doing CAD work and Part 107 credentials. One thing I stress to anyone wanting to get into survey type work with a drone is flying a drone is only a tiny portion of the skillset you need to have. Frankly even the people I work with every day, including Engineers, barely grasp what the drone data can and can't do. And it's always a flip flop between it's junk data they don't trust no matter how accurate it is, or it's capable of miracles and seeing underground and will take me all of ten minutes with 8 of them being prep time. You fight uphill with these people every day and they have little idea what you do, they don't mean any harm, it's just hard to convey what is involved and one thing I stress is thats my job, I figure all that out, you just outline what you need, I get what is possible.

Very well stated. My favorite part of your message is one I use when talking with a new EMS Director about drones:

We use a veriety of tools, the drone is just one.

Just like a Carpenter doesn't "only" have a hammer. A mechanic doesn't "only" have a screwdriver. They have various tools and techniques to do their jobs.

 

[adm_geomatics]

They're worried about a guy with a drone taking a bunch of downward facing pictures? They're going to crap in their pants when A.I. starts putting surveyors and engineers out of work. The drone operator is doing nothing different than what Google Earth does. He just does it better within a limited area. A ruling against him would not only set a precedence against Google Earth, but also any manned aerial photography company, NASA, etc. IMO It'll never happen.

I think we need to know more about the specifics of the case before following generalizations like that. Particularly the services offered and the deliverables they were providing. If they are promising/certifying an accuracy value they can be held accountable if that accuracy is not produced and it results in any kind of monetary loss by the client. Even verbally. Many States have law in place that goes beyond that even without a statement of accuracy for non-Surveyors so it is what it is and as @BigAl07 said unless you are a PLS or working directly for a PLS the words Surveyor and Surveying need to be kept out of your mouth.

 

[JFlamm]

There are reasons why we PLS' have pages and pages of statutes and laws that we have to abide by. There are reasons why obtaining professional licensure is an arduous process that involves college degree, years of experience, and state/national level of examination. There are reasons why we have to carry millions of dollars worth of professional liability insurance. Land is only second to Religion in the cause of wars. Protecting the public is in our Surveyor's Creed. So when JoeBlow MapMaker slaps a county GIS depiction of property lines on an aerial, that he made from his drone and offers it as a "survey", you bet his butt will be in front of a judge. JoeBlow MapMaker thinks he's going to get rich quick by selling volumetric surveys to quarries because he thinks it's as simple as pushing a couple of buttons in some cheap software. I'm here to tell you that it's not that easy and you don't ever want to mess up on quantities. $$$$$ for me when they call to fix your BS.

 

[Dave Pitman]

Protecting the public is in our Surveyor's Creed. So when JoeBlow MapMaker slaps a county GIS depiction of property lines on an aerial, that he made from his drone and offers it as a "survey", you bet his butt will be in front of a judge.

Absolutely. And rightfully so.

On the other hand, you have state survey boards in some locals getting all bent out of shape when some drone operator provides an orthorectified photograph with the disclaimer that it is not accurate to any standard and is only useful for visual reference. Yet these same boards are too afraid to go after the likes of Google, Bing or Apple providing far more general imagery in fear of actually having to face deeeep pockets and real attorneys fighting back.

Yes, Martha. We have problems.

 

[JFlamm]

Absolutely. And rightfully so.

On the other hand, you have state survey boards in some locals getting all bent out of shape when some drone operator provides an orthorectified photograph with the disclaimer that it is not accurate to any standard and is only useful for visual reference. Yet these same boards are too afraid to go after the likes of Google, Bing or Apple providing far more general imagery in fear of actually having to face deeeep pockets and real attorneys fighting back.

Yes, Martha. We have problems.

In my personal opinion, as long as that disclaimer is plastered on that image, I see no problem with it. People make preliminary exhibits all of time. But I've also seen that disclaimer get removed by a party that didn't want to pay to have it done for real. Have fun with that piece of toilet paper when your neighbor takes you to court with his signed and sealed plat of survey and you're now paying for damages because the county website didn't show that 5' jog in the property line. Or JoeBlow MapMaker gives Clark W Landowner a pretty picture with contours that he made from his new drone but he doesn't show that there's a sewer easement running diagonally across that backyard and the property owner thinks it's ok to install that new inground pool. Whoops.
As far as Google, Bing or Apple, there's nothing there to go after. If that were the case, we'd be going after County Assessor websites as well. It's just imagery. Anything measured on it is GIS close at best. We all know what GIS stands for right? Get It Surveyed if you want it accurately portrayed and will stand up in the court of law. The lat/longs and elevations portrayed in those are generally off for security reasons. We use those tools quite often for preliminary work such as bids or recon. In fact, Autodesk Civil3D, our preferred software, uses Bing for background imagery when you have a state plane coordinate geolocated project.
Bottom line is that we need to protect the public by educating them. They've got to understand that unless it is signed and sealed by a professional surveyor or professional engineer, the validity of that data is questionable at best.

 

[Dave Pitman]

Bottom line is that we need to protect the public by educating them. They've got to understand that unless it is signed and sealed by a professional surveyor or professional engineer, the validity of that data is questionable at best.

For sure.

Counties themselves serve up property line grids on their website. They are not accurate of course, and you don't see the survey boards going after the counties for providing the general info. Uniformed public can print out one of those and call it good. No drone operator needed.

There are many phone apps available that pull in a county's GIS grid and overlay it on a satellite background so one can walk around and "see" the property line. Accurate? of course not. But they have a use case.

The bottom line is that the public does need to understand what data is good for what. Life is getting more complicated every day.

In my personal opinion, as long as that disclaimer is plastered on that image,

Regarding survey boards and uas ops, context is everything. The technology is only going to get better and is no doubt disruptive to a sector that has pretty much been immune to disruption until recently. Interesting times!

 

[adm_geomatics]

I start getting twitchy when I see numbers and annotations start showing up. Especially when it has anything to do with real property... even when they disclaim "approximate". IMO the laws need to be relaxed but as you mentioned about the disclaimer there needs to be some legality requiring that specifically if you are not going to have a PLS stamp on the plan. I also think it should require a note of the exact equipment used, mission configuration and Pilot certificate number from which everything is reproducible. That's a requirement of ours.

>>Here's an example.<< No digital PLS stamp and I wiped out my cert# but a topo and planimetrics with all the information needed to reproduce...

 

[JFlamm]

Regarding survey boards and uas ops, context is everything. The technology is only going to get better and is no doubt disruptive to a sector that has pretty much been immune to disruption until recently. Interesting times!

You are correct there. The advancement of technology is inevitable. Things are becoming easier for everyone to utilize. I remember the first time I came on to a site and saw a non-surveyor using a total station and was laying out a building. I about lost my mind! It's common place now. Most of the trades are utilizing survey methods to layout their stuff. It's just easier, quicker and the most accurate. We've accepted that even though we've lost a lot of work over it. But do you know what they have to have in order to perform those functions? A surveyor's control network. Our saving grace that's protected by law, for now.

 

[Dave Pitman]

But do you know what they have to have in order to perform those functions? A surveyor's control network. Our saving grace that's protected by law, for now.

Please elaborate on this point.