Welcome, Commercial Drone Pilots!
Join our growing community today!
Sign up

Warehouse rooftop flown with Pix4dCapture - BVLOS

Cardinal

New Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2019
Messages
3
Reaction score
1
Location
Midwest
Assume a large warehouse building, appx 200yds by 75yds, 50ft in height.
Then place a grid on top of the building with Pix4dCature to be flown 25ft above rooftop.
Without a lift to elevate the remote pilot, the drone would be BVLOS for more than half of the flight time as it fly's up and down this grid.
Is there a way to legally accomplish this without a waiver?
 
Assume a large warehouse building, appx 200yds by 75yds, 50ft in height.
Then place a grid on top of the building with Pix4dCature to be flown 25ft above rooftop.
Without a lift to elevate the remote pilot, the drone would be BVLOS for more than half of the flight time as it fly's up and down this grid.
Is there a way to legally accomplish this without a waiver?
Observers? Any other bldgs close by?
 
Thanks All,
Rooftop access may be an option but I can't count on that.
Other buildings in the area are of similar size and shape.
What would the proper way to use an observer be?
In the US, I was under the assumption an observer(s) needed to be relatively close by.
Cell phone or walkie-talkie use was not acceptable?
 
Thanks All,
Rooftop access may be an option but I can't count on that.
Other buildings in the area are of similar size and shape.
What would the proper way to use an observer be?
In the US, I was under the assumption an observer(s) needed to be relatively close by.
Cell phone or walkie-talkie use was not acceptable?

The VO must be ale to see the UAS during the entire flight and maintain "effective" communications with PIC, it is up to the PIC to interpret the regulation:

§ 107.31 Visual line of sight aircraft operation.
(a) With vision that is unaided by any device other than corrective lenses, the remote pilot in command, the visual observer (if one is used), and the person manipulating the flight control of the small unmanned aircraft system must be able to see the unmanned aircraft throughout the entire flight in order to:

(1) Know the unmanned aircraft's location;

(2) Determine the unmanned aircraft's attitude, altitude, and direction of flight;

(3) Observe the airspace for other air traffic or hazards; and

(4) Determine that the unmanned aircraft does not endanger the life or property of another.

(b) Throughout the entire flight of the small unmanned aircraft, the ability described in paragraph (a) of this section must be exercised by either:

(1) The remote pilot in command and the person manipulating the flight controls of the small unmanned aircraft system; or

(2) A visual observer.

§ 107.33 Visual observer.
If a visual observer is used during the aircraft operation, all of the following requirements must be met:

(a) The remote pilot in command, the person manipulating the flight controls of the small unmanned aircraft system, and the visual observer must maintain effective communication with each other at all times.

(b) The remote pilot in command must ensure that the visual observer is able to see the unmanned aircraft in the manner specified in § 107.31.

(c) The remote pilot in command, the person manipulating the flight controls of the small unmanned aircraft system, and the visual observer must coordinate to do the following:

(1) Scan the airspace where the small unmanned aircraft is operating for any potential collision hazard; and

(2) Maintain awareness of the position of the small unmanned aircraft through direct visual observation.
 
@Cardinal you do have your 14CFR107, right?

I rarely use a VO, but times I have, I use radios. I have Motorola GMRS radios. I’ll give one to my VO and sometimes one to the site Foreman (if they want). We’re never farther than a couple hundred yards apart, and it’s only for those momentary times the bird leaves my direct site; the VO then has eyes on it. The GMRS radios work very good when you’re not far apart. Used with a VOX headset/mic, it’s hands free communication that’s pretty solid.

Get your GMRS license...it’s good for 10 years and all you do is fill out this form and pay the fee. The FCC will send you the license with Call Sign.
 
The VO must be ale to see the UAS during the entire flight and maintain "effective" communications with PIC, it is up to the PIC to interpret the regulation:

§ 107.31 Visual line of sight aircraft operation.
(a) With vision that is unaided by any device other than corrective lenses, the remote pilot in command, the visual observer (if one is used), and the person manipulating the flight control of the small unmanned aircraft system must be able to see the unmanned aircraft throughout the entire flight in order to:

(1) Know the unmanned aircraft's location;

(2) Determine the unmanned aircraft's attitude, altitude, and direction of flight;

(3) Observe the airspace for other air traffic or hazards; and

(4) Determine that the unmanned aircraft does not endanger the life or property of another.

(b) Throughout the entire flight of the small unmanned aircraft, the ability described in paragraph (a) of this section must be exercised by either:

(1) The remote pilot in command and the person manipulating the flight controls of the small unmanned aircraft system; or

(2) A visual observer.

§ 107.33 Visual observer.
If a visual observer is used during the aircraft operation, all of the following requirements must be met:

(a) The remote pilot in command, the person manipulating the flight controls of the small unmanned aircraft system, and the visual observer must maintain effective communication with each other at all times.

(b) The remote pilot in command must ensure that the visual observer is able to see the unmanned aircraft in the manner specified in § 107.31.

(c) The remote pilot in command, the person manipulating the flight controls of the small unmanned aircraft system, and the visual observer must coordinate to do the following:

(1) Scan the airspace where the small unmanned aircraft is operating for any potential collision hazard; and

(2) Maintain awareness of the position of the small unmanned aircraft through direct visual observation.
The PIC must maintain visuals through the entire flight. The observer is for navigation and obstacle avoidance not to replace the PIC's eyes. Advisory Circular 107-2 on 107.33 section 5.7 page 5-4 is pretty clear on that. Waivers would be required for BVLOS in this case even if the VOS could maintain Los from a greater distance but the PIC can't.

107.33(a), the first line is full of "and"s not "and"s and "or"s, though I am not a lawyer or pretending to be one.
 
The PIC must maintain visuals through the entire flight. The observer is for navigation and obstacle avoidance not to replace the PIC's eyes. Advisory Circular 107-2 on 107.33 section 5.7 page 5-4 is pretty clear on that. Waivers would be required for BVLOS in this case even if the VOS could maintain Los from a greater distance but the PIC can't.

107.33(a), the first line is full of "and"s not "and"s and "or"s, though I am not a lawyer or pretending to be one.
Respectfully, advisories are just that, not regulations. I've held a commercial certificate since 1976 and if I followed every AC as Regulation, I'd never leave the hangar.

THIS is the FAR:
(b) The remote pilot in command must ensure that the visual observer is able to see the unmanned aircraft in the manner specified in § 107.31.
(b) Throughout the entire flight of the small unmanned aircraft, the ability described in paragraph (a) of this section must be exercised by either:

(1) The remote pilot in command and the person manipulating the flight controls of the small unmanned aircraft system; or

(2) A visual observer.
 
Respectfully, advisories are just that, not regulations. I've held a commercial certificate since 1976 and if I followed every AC as Regulation, I'd never leave the hangar.

THIS is the FAR:
(b) The remote pilot in command must ensure that the visual observer is able to see the unmanned aircraft in the manner specified in § 107.31.
(b) Throughout the entire flight of the small unmanned aircraft, the ability described in paragraph (a) of this section must be exercised by either:

(1) The remote pilot in command and the person manipulating the flight controls of the small unmanned aircraft system; or

(2) A visual observer.
I get what you are saying but the advisory is a clarification of the written regulations. The regulation is very clear on it's own as written here. The advisory simply supports my read on the reg.

§ 107.31 Visual line of sight aircraft operation.
(a) With vision that is unaided by any device other than corrective lenses, the remote pilot in command, the visual observer (if one is used), and the person manipulating the flight control of the small unmanned aircraft system must be able to see the unmanned aircraft throughout the entire flight in order to:

Notice the "and". Allowing the exception of the PIC from VLoS if a visual observer is used would require the use of "or". This is how I will continue to interpret this regulations thanks to the clarification of the advisory memo.

I am not judging your interpretation and you clearly fly with safety and regulations in mind. It is what it is.
 
You have to read the whole thing:


§ 107.31 Visual line of sight aircraft operation.
(a) With vision that is unaided by any device other than corrective lenses, the remote pilot in command, the visual observer (if one is used), and the person manipulating the flight control of the small unmanned aircraft system must be able to see the unmanned aircraft throughout the entire flight in order to:

(1) Know the unmanned aircraft's location;

(2) Determine the unmanned aircraft's attitude, altitude, and direction of flight;

(3) Observe the airspace for other air traffic or hazards; and

(4) Determine that the unmanned aircraft does not endanger the life or property of another.

(b) Throughout the entire flight of the small unmanned aircraft, the ability described in paragraph (a) of this section must be exercised by either:

(1) The remote pilot in command and the person manipulating the flight controls of the small unmanned aircraft system; or

(2) A visual observer.
 
You have to read the whole thing:


§ 107.31 Visual line of sight aircraft operation.
(a) With vision that is unaided by any device other than corrective lenses, the remote pilot in command, the visual observer (if one is used), and the person manipulating the flight control of the small unmanned aircraft system must be able to see the unmanned aircraft throughout the entire flight in order to:

(1) Know the unmanned aircraft's location;

(2) Determine the unmanned aircraft's attitude, altitude, and direction of flight;

(3) Observe the airspace for other air traffic or hazards; and

(4) Determine that the unmanned aircraft does not endanger the life or property of another.

(b) Throughout the entire flight of the small unmanned aircraft, the ability described in paragraph (a) of this section must be exercised by either:

(1) The remote pilot in command and the person manipulating the flight controls of the small unmanned aircraft system; or

(2) A visual observer.
I get it we are focused on different things. I did read the whole things several times. The advisory memo still guides my interpretation as it illustrates the conditions in much greater detail and in clearer language. That's why discussions like this are great. That you for showing me how you view and read it and what stands out for you.

I didn't include the link to the circular before so here it is if anyone else is interested.
 
Assume a large warehouse building, appx 200yds by 75yds, 50ft in height.
Then place a grid on top of the building with Pix4dCature to be flown 25ft above rooftop.
Without a lift to elevate the remote pilot, the drone would be BVLOS for more than half of the flight time as it fly's up and down this grid.
Is there a way to legally accomplish this without a waiver?
The ultimate decision and responsibility is, as always, yours as PIC. I will say this; if it were me I'd plan the operation in detail on paper and document your use of VOs, and:
I would be including the cost of the written plan and VOs in the final bill!!! You didn'tmention airspace so I assume that is not an issue?
 
I get it we are focused on different things. I did read the whole things several times. The advisory memo still guides my interpretation as it illustrates the conditions in much greater detail and in clearer language. That's why discussions like this are great. That you for showing me how you view and read it and what stands out for you.

I didn't include the link to the circular before so here it is if anyone else is interested.
No sweat; good discussion.
 
Seems like a very simple and easy BVLOS waiver to apply for, and could start a trend for the good. Explain the safety measures in place and that the lack of VLOS is only at times when and where you know and have planned for... and have a VO to maximize the potential (by standing Far away). All they can do is say 'No'... or YES!

BVLOS is intended to prevent hazardous loss of link at long distance with potential unknown hazards... not being blocked by a roof. I mean, mine go behind a tree every once in a while (? shhhhh!)

Dr. Drone.
 
What would the proper way to use an observer be?
In the US, I was under the assumption an observer(s) needed to be relatively close by.
Cell phone or walkie-talkie use was not acceptable?

Position one or more to cover your blind spots and equip them with a radio to communicate with you.
 
Thanks to All,
Great discussion. Will take all of this into consideration. Prompted me to make a more through search resulting in some good info on the subject.

I do have my 107, have been an ATP for the past 25+years. RR Permit since 85.
Don't have GMRS.
Not opposed to getting another license but also understand frs/gmrs radios of 2 watts or less (most common) do not require a license. Assume the VO would need a license also if radio's were high powered.

Forget where, but had read that radio comm between the RM and VO was not acceptable. That stuck in my mind. This discussion and research now tells me that was incorrect.

Looks like gaining access to the rooftop or possible VO with proper placement will do the trick.
May also try to obtain a BVLOS waiver for the experience.
 
  • Like
Reactions: LUIS MARTINEZ
I know I'm a little late to this conversation, but I've had this same issue. The building I was flying was similar in size. I was flying video and not mapping.

I made plans to map if requested and my solution was to fly higher. 25 feet seems extremely low to do mapping. The pixel resolution would be sub cm depending on your drone camera. It would also require you to have thousands of pictures to get accuracy. Fly high enough to see but low enough to match the resolution you desire. If you do fly higher and want better resolution, increase your overlap percentage.. you should still have fewer pics.

Don't know if that is a solution, but just an idea.. and it takes out the worry of BVLOS
 
  • Like
Reactions: DronePhD

Members online

No members online now.

Forum statistics

Threads
4,297
Messages
37,687
Members
6,002
Latest member
Igwe3