Would you bother...

[BigAl07]

No, I'm not going there. I don't care if he uses a drone to photograph his own business without a license. Not sure he would need one for that anyway.

How would he NOT need Part 107 for that? Anything that is NOT hobby/recreational requires a Part 107. An exchange of money is not the deciding factor but any way in the world someone is "doing something for a business" it is absolutely NOT, in any way, HOBBY/Recreational! That's pretty much a no brainer IMHO.

Related question here. People speak of "possible fines." I am studying for my 107 but do not have it yet. I am exclusively flying for fun. I am however getting nibbles like "if you get me some footage of this, I might be able to get you some money down the road." I have not done it and don't intend to. But what specific fines are we talking about?

Pilot Faces $1,100 per violation plus other penalties (civil, local ordinances etc) for "Acting as an Airman".
The person who hires him (aka person who causes the operation) is liable for up to $11,000.

A Realtor could face other issues such as "possible loss of REA privileges" because they are required to be ethical in everything they do. A REA who knowingly breaks a law can face penalties on state and national levels.

 

[R.Perry]

How would he NOT need Part 107 for that? Anything that is NOT hobby/recreational requires a Part 107. An exchange of money is not the deciding factor but any way in the world someone is "doing something for a business" it is absolutely NOT, in any way, HOBBY/Recreational! That's pretty much a no brainer IMHO.



Pilot Faces $1,100 per violation plus other penalties (civil, local ordinances etc) for "Acting as an Airman".
The person who hires him (aka person who causes the operation) is liable for up to $11,000.

A Realtor could face other issues such as "possible loss of REA privileges" because they are required to be ethical in everything they do. A REA who knowingly breaks a law can face penalties on state and national levels.

BigA107, where did you come up with those dollar amounts? I haven't looked, but I haven't seen anything published in respect to fines for specific violations. Besides the new FAR book is too thick, got tired of reading it.

 

[BigAl07]

BigA107, where did you come up with those dollar amounts? I haven't looked, but I haven't seen anything published in respect to fines for specific violations. Besides the new FAR book is too thick, got tired of reading it.

From a direct reply to a request to [email protected] about "Liability for Unlicensed Operations".

I'll take a screen shot and post it in a reply below.

 

[BigAl07]

I'll take a screen shot and post it in a reply below.

Here you go. This is a screen shot of someone's email (not mine)

 

[aerialimagery]

I had a realtor that asked me to do a 'sample' of a high end property and she would decide from there if she would continue using me. So, stupid me, I flew it and took the usual shots including a pano of the gorgeous view of the valley below. She used my work to sell the house but I never heard from her again. Turns out, a high end house like that one only comes on the market once every few years and for her 'regular' listings, she does her own photos. Lesson learned, never ever do a free audition!

I offered a free session of an ongoing project to a construction company, with the hopes that they could see for themselves the benefits of progress photography and might contract to have it done regularly. Instead, they asked me to take some nice photos of one of their completed projects ("for free") and then "go from there." It would have been the same situation that you had, but I turned it down and explained that the free offer was only meant for a project that is in progress.

I already shared that a realtor wanted me to do drone photos and ground photos and interior photos of two homes on adjacent properties for just $200. I was of a mind to do it to get my foot in the door, but I realized she was like your realtor "customer," and this was just a one-time situation, and that I would not have heard back from her to do more work at reasonable prices.

 

[aerialimagery]

"How would he NOT need Part 107 for that? Anything that is NOT hobby/recreational requires a Part 107. An exchange of money is not the deciding factor but any way in the world someone is "doing something for a business" it is absolutely NOT, in any way, HOBBY/Recreational! That's pretty much a no brainer IMHO."

If a guy can't photograph his own business with his own drone, it's ridiculous. I'd never make an issue out of it, unless he was doing it unsafely. It would be to me like telling someone he can't cut his own hair or that of his children unless he has a barber's license.

 

[R.Perry]

Here you go. This is a screen shot of someone's email (not mine)

View attachment 312

Thanks, I want some of the realtors around my neck of the woods to see that. I think that should be posted at the realtors board in every city and county.

 

[BigAl07]

If a guy can't photograph his own business with his own drone, it's ridiculous. I'd never make an issue out of it, unless he was doing it unsafely. It would be to me like telling someone he can't cut his own hair or that of his children unless he has a barber's license.

Regardless how you feel it's the Law. It's a FAR and if it has to do with business it requires Part 107.

Your comparison is absolutely absurd and comparing apples to a mud puddle. It's OUR industry we are talking about here. I'm not saying you should insult your client base by insisting they hire you and only you but at the end of the day if this is what you want to do for a living long term it really should matter. If it's just a paying hobby then I can understand your attitude to our profession.

 

[BigAl07]

Thanks, I want some of the realtors around my neck of the woods to see that. I think that should be posted at the realtors board in every city and county.

I totally agree.

At one point the National Association of Realtors (NAR) was taking a very hard line against "unlicensed" sUAS operations but they soon realized that they were offending their paying customer base and they went pretty much silent on the deal.

I kinda look forward to the day that a Realtor screws up and brings their organization into the headlines flying "unlicensed". The sooner the better IMHO.

 

[R.Perry]

I offered a free session of an ongoing project to a construction company, with the hopes that they could see for themselves the benefits of progress photography and might contract to have it done regularly. Instead, they asked me to take some nice photos of one of their completed projects ("for free") and then "go from there." It would have been the same situation that you had, but I turned it down and explained that the free offer was only meant for a project that is in progress.

I already shared that a realtor wanted me to do drone photos and ground photos and interior photos of two homes on adjacent properties for just $200. I was of a mind to do it to get my foot in the door, but I realized she was like your realtor "customer," and this was just a one-time situation, and that I would not have heard back from her to do more work at reasonable prices.

Not all realtors are cheap, but most are. I don't take offense to someone wanting something for nothing, or very little, I just don't provide it for them. Time is money, I'm not going to waste my money.

 

[aerialimagery]

Regardless how you feel it's the Law. It's a FAR and if it has to do with business it requires Part 107.

Your comparison is absolutely absurd and comparing apples to a mud puddle. It's OUR industry we are talking about here. I'm not saying you should insult your client base by insisting they hire you and only you but at the end of the day if this is what you want to do for a living long term it really should matter. If it's just a paying hobby then I can understand your attitude to our profession.

I've been a professional aerial photographer for over 25 years. It's not been "just a hobby" and I don't have an "attitude." I have a valid opinion.

I stand by what I said. It's just plain dumb if a guy can't buy a drone and photograph his own business without a license. If I need to keep drones out of the hands of people who only want to photograph their own premises in order for me to have more business, then I'll look for another business. The bottom line is that I can either compete with him on quality or I can't. If I can't then I don't deserve his business. And if he's a crappy photographer but wants to do it himself with his own drone, that's his business.

My "attitude" is that it's a free country and if I have a drone and no license I should be able to photograph my own business and put the pictures on my website and not be molested by the drone police, so long as do it safely, and that's exactly what I would do. I would challenge any charges brought against me, though I would hope licensed drone pilots and the FAA would have better things to do than worry about one man minding his own business. As a a photographer using a drone, I want to be hired because I have skills and talents offered at a reasonable cost to do the work, and not because I have a piece or paper or because someone else doesn't. Yes I want to do more photography using a drone and be making a living at it, but "what should matter" to me apparently is different than what matters to you and you're entitled to your opinion, but I respectfully do not accept that you have the definitive answer or the final word as to "what should matter." Besides that, my analogy was not at all flawed.

And note, to make it clear, I'm not saying realtors or construction companies should not have licenses. I'm referring to people who have their own business and just want to photograph their own facility.

 

[Rodger]

I had a realtor that asked me to do a 'sample' of a high end property and she would decide from there if she would continue using me. So, stupid me, I flew it and took the usual shots including a pano of the gorgeous view of the valley below. She used my work to sell the house but I never heard from her again. Turns out, a high end house like that one only comes on the market once every few years and for her 'regular' listings, she does her own photos. Lesson learned, never ever do a free audition!

I am ticked just reading your post. The nerve of some people. I wonder how many schemes she uses to make her sales to unsuspecting buyers that put their trust in her.

 

[AH-1G]

I had a realtor that asked me to do a 'sample' of a high end property and she would decide from there if she would continue using me. So, stupid me, I flew it and took the usual shots including a pano of the gorgeous view of the valley below. She used my work to sell the house but I never heard from her again. Turns out, a high end house like that one only comes on the market once every few years and for her 'regular' listings, she does her own photos. Lesson learned, never ever do a free audition!

Sad, why don't you go to her web page and write a review on how she took you for granted, this would show her lack of integrity! If she ever had any?
I would mention to her you're planning to do this, maybe she'll give you some mula?

 

[BigAl07]

I had a realtor that asked me to do a 'sample' of a high end property and she would decide from there if she would continue using me. So, stupid me, I flew it and took the usual shots including a pano of the gorgeous view of the valley below. She used my work to sell the house but I never heard from her again. Turns out, a high end house like that one only comes on the market once every few years and for her 'regular' listings, she does her own photos. Lesson learned, never ever do a free audition!

I wish this was a rare occurrence but it's not. Realtors are human and apt to be crooked/underhanded just like any other profession and sometimes they see an "opportunity" to save a few dollars at someone else's expense and go for it. It's a Live & Learn situation.

One thing I can tell you is this... value your own time highly. If you don't value your time your clients will smell this and follow suite to do the same. Once you carve yourself into the cheap/free sector you'll have a tough time getting that monkey off your back. @R.Perry said it very well with his comment from above:

Time is money, I'm not going to waste my money.

And note, to make it clear, I'm not saying realtors or construction companies should not have licenses. I'm referring to people who have their own business and just want to photograph their own facility.

So where would you suggest the powers-to-be draw the line on what is and is not allowed as a hobbyist?

Exactly how does a business person, taking aerial pictures of their business, using them to promote their business fall under Hobby/Recreational/336 in any way?

If a Realtor takes aerial pictures of their own listing ( a building they own)and uses them to promote their listing how is that any different?

If a commercial construction company takes aerial pics of their construction site (possibly building their own Corp Headquarters for instance) and use them in their portfolio how does that fall under Part 336 in any way?

I understand the laws, as written, aren't perfect but I also don't think that a business owner taking aerial pics of their business to promote it should get a free pass. The point is if you're going to fly in the NAS for any reason other than hobby/recreation then you need to be Part 107 and know/understand how to fly safely in the NAS.

 

[AH-1G]

"How would he NOT need Part 107 for that? Anything that is NOT hobby/recreational requires a Part 107. An exchange of money is not the deciding factor but any way in the world someone is "doing something for a business" it is absolutely NOT, in any way, HOBBY/Recreational! That's pretty much a no brainer IMHO."

If a guy can't photograph his own business with his own drone, it's ridiculous. I'd never make an issue out of it, unless he was doing it unsafely. It would be to me like telling someone he can't cut his own hair or that of his children unless he has a barber's license.

aerial, the person cutting his own hair or his children's is not promoting a business, so he doesn't need a license.
You though being in business, and advertising it on a web page which includes a picture of the facility from a drones perspective is considered business for profit.
I agree it' silly but, for now it's what it is.
I'm sure that you are a staunch law abiding patriotic American.

 

[aerialimagery]

My apologies for being a little too intense in my rant above.

But there is a point where this law if taken to the extreme can be silly and unfair.

For example someone who owns a nursery also has the right to be a drone hobbyist and a photography hobbyist. He also has the right to photograph his nursery using his drone. I think he also has the right to make a large print and hang it in his business somewhere. Or would that be crossing the line? But what if someone wanted to know where a certain tree was that he needed to load and if the nursery owner was having some trouble explaining where it was on the property, so he instead pointed out the location on his aerial image? Hasn't he then crossed that line? He's used his image as a map to help him do business with a customer. Or what if he decided to use that image to count his trees and help him with his inventory? Would that be illegal?

Or what if he doesn't have a website but is going to make one? Can he use that aerial image? I think that would violate part 107. So if he wants an aerial image on his website he has to pay someone else to do what he already has? Or he has to go to the trouble and expense to pass the 107 test?

IMHO if we're going to make an issue about this kind of commercial work we're focusing too much on the letter of the law and not the spirit of the law, and twisting the intent of the law as if it were some kind of protection against competition.

 

[BigAl07]

My apologies for being a little too intense in my rant above.

But there is a point where this law if taken to the extreme can be silly and unfair.

For example someone who owns a nursery also has the right to be a drone hobbyist and a photography hobbyist. He also has the right to photograph his nursery using his drone. I think he also has the right to make a large print and hang it in his business somewhere. Or would that be crossing the line? But what if someone wanted to know where a certain tree was that he needed to load and if the nursery owner was having some trouble explaining where it was on the property, so he instead pointed out the location on his aerial image? Hasn't he then crossed that line? He's used his image as a map to help him do business with a customer. Or what if he decided to use that image to count his trees and help him with his inventory? Would that be illegal?

Or what if he doesn't have a website but is going to make one? Can he use that aerial image? I think that would violate part 107. So if he wants an aerial image on his website he has to pay someone else to do what he already has? Or he has to go to the trouble and expense to pass the 107 test?

IMHO if we're going to make an issue about this kind of commercial work we're focusing too much on the letter of the law and not the spirit of the law, and twisting the intent of the law as if it were some kind of protection against competition.

You don't fully understand how the difference between hobbyist and Civil (Part 107) works.

It's about INTENT of the flight at the time of the flight. If he's just taking a picture (ART) to hang on a wall then he is a hobbyist. SIMPLE!

If he flies to take picture for his pleasure it's a hobby/336 flight. Regardless of how the picture is used further down the road. It's about intent of the flight. Now granted if he is in the middle of building a website and he is intending to incorporate those pictures into the new website, technically he's breaking the law. It all depends on how he answers the questions SHOULD someone come knocking in a black SUV.

A Hobbyist can use/sell/donate any of their hobby obtained images/data at a later time so long as they were obtained completely within the guidelines of a hobbyist/336.

 

[aerialimagery]

You don't fully understand how the difference between hobbyist and Civil (Part 107) works.

It's about INTENT of the flight at the time of the flight. If he's just taking a picture (ART) to hang on a wall then he is a hobbyist. SIMPLE!

If he flies to take picture for his pleasure it's a hobby/336 flight. Regardless of how the picture is used further down the road. It's about intent of the flight. Now granted if he is in the middle of building a website and he is intending to incorporate those pictures into the new website, technically he's breaking the law. It all depends on how he answers the questions SHOULD someone come knocking in a black SUV.

A Hobbyist can use/sell/donate any of their hobby obtained images/data at a later time so long as they were obtained completely within the guidelines of a hobbyist/336.

Cool then anyone who does this as a hobby has an out if he doesn't mind bending the truth a little. He can just say his intent was pleasure at the time of taking the photos and then later saw them as valuable for other purposes.

And I would hope the guys in the black SUVs have better things to do with taxpayer dollars.

 

[AH-1G]

Cool then anyone who does this as a hobby has an out if he doesn't mind bending the truth a little. He can just say his intent was pleasure at the time of taking the photos and then later saw them as valuable for other purposes.

And I would hope the guys in the black SUVs have better things to do with taxpayer dollars.

Aerial, it seems you dislike the government, but enjoy the freedom? All were trying to do is tell you what the current law is for conducting business using a drone. Your making it a bigger deal of this than we are! Bottom line you don't seem like rules and regulations?

 

[dangerd]

Cool then anyone who does this as a hobby has an out if he doesn't mind bending the truth a little. He can just say his intent was pleasure at the time of taking the photos and then later saw them as valuable for other purposes.

And I would hope the guys in the black SUVs have better things to do with taxpayer dollars.

I don't think anyone is suggesting "threatening" the guy by asking about him having a 107, just the opposite. As a responsible drone operator you could be helpful by informing him about the law and letting him know about not flying too close to an airport for the safety of all pilots in the area. Tell him that you don't intend to turn him in, that you just want for him to learn the rules and conduct his operation safely. Let him know about apps like Airmap etc. and you could suggest showing him some of your work while you are talking so he can see what a professional photographer can do in comparison to what he is shooting.
At least this way even if he refuses to get certified he will have an understanding of how to be safe. This way even though he may one day get caught and fined at least he will be educated as to how to fly safely.
I am pretty sure that he would not appreciate you going out and building / selling real estate unlicensed! I wonder if he would do the same for you if your roles were reversed?
You do not have to be the "drone police", but you are doing all sUAV operators a disservice by saying nothing and are ignoring a safety issue which could effect us all if he screws up.
As to if he SHOULD be able to take his own shots of his business, the law is the law and no matter what you THINK, it is what it is.
Once you give him the information to get educated, if he cares he can do things the right way or keep doing it the wrong way, at least you will know that you have done the right thing by trying to help him.