Droners.io bid question

[Rob Hodges]

Don't forget the Rule of Three: 1/3 taxes, 1/3 to the business, 1/3 in your pocket.

So, it's MUCH worse:

28.7 / 3 = 9.56 / 2 (hours) = $4.78 per hour.

If that's what you value your time and services....go fo it. Droners is for you.

(Minimum Wage in Texas is $7.25 and hour)

I left out much more than just taxes...lol

 

[R.Perry]

Fred I hate to be reminded of taxes, my state is tax crazy. You are so right on. Unless a person does $600.00 business with a company they don't get a 1099 from them, so I'll bet they don't tell big brother about their side income.

 

[Rob Hodges]

I believe they still report it though. You have to file a tax form with all the major ones and Paypal even reported to the IRS last year, no matter why the money went into the account.

 

[aerialimagery]

1/3 taxes on gross sales? That would be a 50% tax rate on the net revenue.

It really depends upon the amount of business being done. If there is a home office, and a small amount of sales, that could offset all the income and there would be zero taxes. I can claim $8,000 per year for my home office, so my first $8,000 net is tax free. Part-timers might be happy with that. (Also, if an economical car is used, the standard mileage cost allowed by the IRS is much more than the actual cost, so some additional income can be shielded from taxes).

Also, the cost of their equipment is going to offset income, so if they don't do much work, even without a home office deduction, they are not going to be paying any taxes.

These people already have their drones and the money has been spent. $90 to them at this point is free and clear. Is it better they don't do the work and be $90 poorer?

 

[Fred Garvin]

1/3 taxes on gross sales?

No. The Rule of Thirds applies to Net.

 

[R.Perry]

1/3 taxes on gross sales? That would be a 50% tax rate on the net revenue.

It really depends upon the amount of business being done. If there is a home office, and a small amount of sales, that could offset all the income and there would be zero taxes. I can claim $8,000 per year for my home office, so my first $8,000 net is tax free. Part-timers might be happy with that. (Also, if an economical car is used, the standard mileage cost allowed by the IRS is much more than the actual cost, so some additional income can be shielded from taxes).

Also, the cost of their equipment is going to offset income, so if they don't do much work, even without a home office deduction, they are not going to be paying any taxes.

These people already have their drones and the money has been spent. $90 to them at this point is free and clear. Is it better they don't do the work and be $90 poorer?

First of all if you are righting off a home office you must not use that portion of the home for anything else.
What you are really saying is these folks that are working for garbage isn't going to make enough money to offset their deductions. That's real smart, in essence they are working for free.
Prior to deregulations the trucking industry was thriving and many truck drivers were making good money and a decent living. Along came deregulations and guess what, everybody started cutting the profit out of trucking, and many trucking companies went broke because of people willing to work cheap. It was very good for the shippers. What happened long term, people decided the trucking industry wasn't worth it and sought out other professions. Today we have an extreme shortage of truck drivers for that very reason, and farmers are having a hard time getting their crops moved, and that is just the beginning of the food chain.
Reality is the poor stiff that is working for nothing will ruin the drone business as well.
There is a guy in my area that is doing aerial real-estate shoots for fifty bucks, no license, no insurance, and no business sense whatsoever.
The average lawyer today gets two to three hundred dollars an hour, a CPA bills close to the same, Surveyors average a hundred and ninety per hour. So what are you worth?

 

[aerialimagery]

Yes I know about the rules regarding a home office deduction. Why did you presume I didn't?

I'm not sure how you define "work for garbage." A $100 fee could be profitable depending upon what's involved and the distance to travel. I wouldn't travel far to do a $100 job, but if it were an easy one and in my town I would. But what I was "really saying" is not what you said I was saying. For example if someone had a home office and could deduct $4,000 for it, and if he were to net $4,000 (before deducting the home office cost) doing aerial photography work with his drone for the year, the home office deduction would bring his income to zero and he would pay zero taxes, yet would still pocket $4,000, so he didn't work for nothing.

Deregulation is a good thing. The free market is fairer and knows better than government bureaucrats. Or would you rather have Big Brother set prices for drone photography to keep little guys out and from charging too little? I wouldn't want that. I value freedom too much, even if government price controls might temporarily benefit me.

What they are doing is not going to "ruin" anything. They have a niche that they are filling. If a guy can buy a drone and with no experience provide useful images then the service he is providing requires little skill and is not worth a lot of money. There are other types of photography and other needs where much skill and more sophisticated equipment is necessary, and they can't compete with that and that work will command higher pay.

I don't know what the trucking industry has to do with anything. If as you say there is now a shortage of drivers, then that will bid up prices and attract more drivers., a matter of supply and demand.

Anyway, I don't think we should worry or complain about these services and low prices, IMHO. We can do better than them and can make more than they do because of greater skill and/or equipment, and if we can't, then we don't deserve to make any more than they do.

 

[Rob Hodges]

The reason this can't be a real income for people is that a lot of people in the industry are willing to take the low pay for the services and they can do that because they have already paid for their equipment and aren't in it using it for a primary income.

I just saw a job paying $150 that would require 10 batteries and about 4 hours. Someone snapped it up. A bunch of $50 questionable jobs were snapped up in minutes last month.

I'm not saying anyone should regulate this, just explaining it to the people thinking they will make a lot of money flying for these places. Unless you are working full time for a company, doing this type of work, you need to know this.

If you own the equipment for a hobby, then use these jobs to pay for your hobby. If you are doing this to feed your family, get another job.

 

[Fred Garvin]

What they are doing is not going to "ruin" anything. They have a niche that they are filling.

Yeah they do...I've established several solid repeat clients because of these guys, having to come in behind them and clean up their mess.

One client told me the "$100" guy showed up in shorts and a t-shirt with a DJI Spark, looked like he could barely control it, and the images were unusable.

Another regular client (I got same way) just booked a job with me in Amarillo, a 600+ mile round trip and 11 hours of driving. Travel costs alone are over $1k and I told them It would not hurt my feelings if they found a local guy to do it, but they told me "No way, you're our guy and the cost is not a factor.".

So, THANKS cheap guys! I do appreciate you.

 

[SethB]

This discussion very much reminds me of the for-client video market.

There will always be a low market, a mid market, and a high market. Someone needs a $100 drone job done, and there is someone willing to provide that service. I do not believe that market’s existence impacts the mid and high markets; they are different, with different requirements.

A mid- or high-market client/employer can’t afford a low-market provider - that client needs different services than the low-market, and usually recognizes and works to manage risks. Not every client buys on price alone. The more experienced a client is, the more they value good communication, credible results, and a consistent record.

 

[SethB]

…For example if someone had a home office and could deduct $4,000 for it, and if he were to net $4,000 (before deducting the home office cost) doing aerial photography work with his drone for the year, the home office deduction would bring his income to zero and he would pay zero taxes, yet would still pocket $4,000, so he didn't work for nothing.

My understanding is that new businesses that claim expenses but do not realize a taxable profit by year three or so invite audit attention.

Disclaimer: Not a tax pro, not an attorney.

 

[R.Perry]

Yeah they do...I've established several solid repeat clients because of these guys, having to come in behind them and clean up their mess.

One client told me the "$100" guy showed up in shorts and a t-shirt with a DJI Spark, looked like he could barely control it, and the images were unusable.

Another regular client (I got same way) just booked a job with me in Amarillo, a 600+ mile round trip and 11 hours of driving. Travel costs alone are over $1k and I told them It would not hurt my feelings if they found a local guy to do it, but they told me "No way, you're our guy and the cost is not a factor.".

So, THANKS cheap guys! I do appreciate you.

Good points, but in all fairness, you are a professional photographer, most of us are just pud knockers hoping our pictures come out ok. I know that is an exaggeration but you get the drift. I know my two and half years at UC Merced taught me a great deal, also taught me what I don't know and how important experience and knowledge is. I have got so many jobs from that experience, and I'm still envious of you; because I wish I had half your knowledge.

 

[aerialimagery]

Good points, but in all fairness, you are a professional photographer, most of us are just pud knockers hoping our pictures come out ok. I know that is an exaggeration but you get the drift. I know my two and half years at UC Merced taught me a great deal, also taught me what I don't know and how important experience and knowledge is. I have got so many jobs from that experience, and I'm still envious of you; because I wish I had half your knowledge.

How do you know what "most of us" are? I don't include myself as a "pud knocker hoping my pictures turn out ok" and I'm sure there are others who would take exception to that. Besides, you don't need to be a good photographer to do construction progress, mapping, and vertical images. The drone base assignment I saw did not require professional photography skills. Just put the drone at 400 feet. Point it straight down. Center the building. And press the button.

 

[R.Perry]

You are correct, you don't need to be a professional to do construction documentation, and most are just point and shoot or in the case of mapping DD takes care of the camera settings. I also have a love for good photography and great composition and that is something professionals have as well as the painstaking task of waiting for the light to be just right to capture what you want.
I can read, and have chatted with many people on this forum over the last few years and most are at best like myself armatures when it come to video or photography. The term pud knocker comes from an old movie The Right Stuff, it isn't an insult, it is a classification or pilots.
Some people just get their feathers ruffled way to easily, and personally that isn't my problem.
By the way, I consider myself a pretty fair pilot, but can't compare to people like Yeager, and Anderson, and many others, so unless you are in that category you are a pud knocker like myself. Now if you are an airline pilot you are basically a passenger most of the time while Hal flies.

 

[aerialimagery]

You are correct, you don't need to be a professional to do construction documentation, and most are just point and shoot or in the case of mapping DD takes care of the camera settings. I also have a love for good photography and great composition and that is something professionals have as well as the painstaking task of waiting for the light to be just right to capture what you want.
I can read, and have chatted with many people on this forum over the last few years and most are at best like myself armatures when it come to video or photography. The term pud knocker comes from an old movie The Right Stuff, it isn't an insult, it is a classification or pilots.
Some people just get their feathers ruffled way to easily, and personally that isn't my problem.
By the way, I consider myself a pretty fair pilot, but can't compare to people like Yeager, and Anderson, and many others, so unless you are in that category you are a pud knocker like myself. Now if you are an airline pilot you are basically a passenger most of the time while Hal flies.

That wasn't the entirety of your comment. You said we are "hoping" our pictures turn out ok. If you don't have confidence that they will, then what are you doing charging for your services or complaining about others who aren't charging enough? That doesn't add up to me.

No, I don't consider myself even to be a "pilot." I've flown with enough real pilots doing aerial photography from airplanes and helicopters to know that positioning a drone with a joy stick is not "real" piloting. But I do consider myself to be a good photographer and made a living for 25 years doing only aerial photography.

Regarding amateurs...if someone is only using blurs and cross-dissolves as their video transitions and not using straight cuts at all, that speaks "amateur" to me, at least as far as video is concerned, and i would hesitate to call him or her a professional.

Anyway, I took exception to the idea that most of us are just hoping out pictures turn out ok, not to the term "pudknocker," though from what I have found online defining it, it's not a compliment.

 

[R.Perry]

Let me give you a lesson in what the definition of a pilot is. It is someone operation anything that flies. Drones fly, so if you are operating a drone, you are piloting it. I was a professional and ex military pilot, I'm an armature photographer, and very inexperienced with video.

Land on an aircraft carrier at night in rough seas, then you go from being a pilot to being an aviator, I was an aviator.

What am I doing charging what I do, because I can, that should be a no brainer.

As for what you learned on line, well we all know everything on the internet it true. I took the term from the movie the Right Stuff at it was pointed at pilots with inflated egos. My ego was deflated when I hit a power line with our crop duster.

Sorry if I ruffled your feathers.

 

[iReviewFrozenDinners]

One client told me the "$100" guy showed up in shorts and a t-shirt with a DJI Spark, looked like he could barely control it, and the images were unusable.

Nothing wrong with wearing shorts and a T-shirt if it's warm out and I'm glad outdated dress code requirements are dying out. Just saying. You're just flying a drone, you're not a surgeon.

 

[Fred Garvin]

It has nothing whatsoever to do with comfort or "outdated" dress codes...

It's about presenting a Professional Business Image. I would never, ever show up to an assignment in shorts and t-shirt. Long pants, slacks or presentable jeans, shirt with a collar, a button-down or Polo, and solid footwear, workboots preferred. I would not allow any pilots working for me to dress any less. My business projects a Professional Image and wearing shorts and a t-shirt is simply not Professional. Clients notice, and they comment on it. Show up to a Construction Site without PPE and in shorts/T-shirt and you won't be allowed onsite. THAT will damage your business reputation severely.

But hey, you do you. Present your business in any way you choose. It's your business. You can even respond and have the last word trying to justify it. It won't change my mind and I'm sure it won't change anyone else's mind here who runs a legitimate, Professional operation.

 

[PinpointUAVS]

It has nothing whatsoever to do with comfort or "outdated" dress codes...

It's about presenting a Professional Business Image. I would never, ever show up to an assignment in shorts and t-shirt. Long pants, slacks or presentable jeans, shirt with a collar, a button-down or Polo, and solid footwear, workboots preferred. I would not allow any pilots working for me to dress any less. My business projects a Professional Image and wearing shorts and a t-shirt is simply not Professional. Clients notice, and they comment on it. Show up to a Construction Site without PPE and in shorts/T-shirt and you won't be allowed onsite. THAT will damage your business reputation severely.

But hey, you do you. Present your business in any way you choose. It's your business. You can even respond and have the last word trying to justify it. It won't change my mind and I'm sure it won't change anyone else's mind here who runs a legitimate, Professional operation.

I’m somewhere in the middle. I wear jeans, a t-shirt, hi-vis vest with my company logo and ball cap with company logo. If it’s a construction site I trade the ball cap for hard hat, and add work boots and safety glasses.

 

[R.Perry]

I was taught to dress for the occasion. Many years ago I read a book "Dress for Success" many of the ideas in that book have stuck with me over the years. Walk onto a construction site in a three piece suit and you will be laughed at, walk into a courtroom in jeans and a tee shirt and the judge most likely will clean your clock.
My wife has an expression for bad attorneys, she refers to them as "cheap suits"