How do you guys handle misinformed, overzealous, or grumpy Law Enforcement? (Or Jurisdiction Conflicts?)

[aerialimagery]

Can you get around these types of restrictions by parking on a street and launching your drone from your vehicle roof or bed of a pickup?

 

[R Martin]

Can you get around these types of restrictions by parking on a street and launching your drone from your vehicle roof or bed of a pickup?

The ROW (right of way) falls outside the public roadway, so no. That is just trying to split hairs.

 

[adm_geomatics]

The ROW (right of way) falls outside the public roadway, so no. That is just trying to split hairs.

The roadway is actually in the ROW. Public utility easements fall outside of the ROW and are something else to watch out for if a particular utility is deemed as critical infrastructure. This is almost impossible to determine if you are not an Engineer or Surveyor and is not very likely unless there is a water or wastewater treatment plant. Your best course of action is to launch from a retail and away from people, but be prepared to leave if asked. Otherwise you will need to approach a property owner and ask permission. The way I got around the TXDOT ROW issue was that luckily there were other categorized roads including county and they had no objections.

 

[R Martin]

The roadway is actually in the ROW. Public utility easements fall outside of the ROW and are something else to watch out for if a particular utility is deemed as critical infrastructure. This is almost impossible to determine if you are not an Engineer or Surveyor and is not very likely unless there is a water or wastewater treatment plant. Your best course of action is to launch from a retail and away from people, but be prepared to leave if asked. Otherwise you will need to approach a property owner and ask permission. The way I got around the TXDOT ROW issue was that luckily there were other categorized roads including county and they had no objections.

Must utilities are encouraged to install outside the roadbase; at least here. That ROW extends from eight feet to up to 100 feet beyond both curbs (I'm speaking of what I know; each municipality is different). So yes, that forces you onto public and private land to launch and recover and opens up yet more accessibility issues. Being a government operator and dealing with the idiocracy has its drawbacks, but it also allows me a lot more freedom to operate than a public commercial operator. I'm not sure if it balances out or not though....

 

[adm_geomatics]

Must utilities are encouraged to install outside the roadbase; at least here. That ROW extends from eight feet to up to 100 feet beyond both curbs (I'm speaking of what I know; each municipality is different). So yes, that forces you onto public and private land to launch and recover and opens up yet more accessibility issues. Being a government operator and dealing with the idiocracy has its drawbacks, but it also allows me a lot more freedom to operate than a public commercial operator. I'm not sure if it balances out or not though....

Correct. Easements always fall outside the public ROW as it itself is an easement. You can see an example on this plat of Public ROW (Red), Private Access Easements (Blue) and a Utility Easement (Green). Usually storm and wastewater are in the public ROW unless going to a point of termination in the property. Electric and water are usually on the property. Apologies if this is off track, but it can be important access information to know that any survey (now including mappers) should know. This and the knowledge of GNSS systems are severely lacking in the UAV mapping community and are some of the most common questions I get. These are the things we need to be licensed for instead of reading METARs...

 

[R Martin]

Correct. Easements always fall outside the public ROW as it itself is an easement. You can see an example on this plat of Public ROW (Red), Private Access Easements (Blue) and a Utility Easement (Green). Usually storm and wastewater are in the public ROW unless going to a point of termination in the property. Electric and water are usually on the property. Apologies if this is off track, but it can be important access information to know that any survey (now including mappers) should know.

Of course the problems start when adjacent pages don't align...ie. a 50 foot easement and the adjacent page shows an 80 feet easement. Happens here all the time. We even have a city road with subsurface utilities built on state land without ownership rights or ANY easement (one of those old handshake deals I'm sure back in 1692 with no documentation).

This and the knowledge of GNSS systems are severely lacking in the UAV mapping community and are some of the most common questions I get. These are the things we need to be licensed for instead of reading METARs...

Need something more like a crystal ball to decipher some of that mess.

 

[Fred Garvin]

There are many things to do to prepare for a job. From gaining required access permissions to airspace issues and insurance, to pre-flight planning and equipment prep, to time management and transportation....if you’re doing it right and not “winging it”....it’s a well scripted dance.

I always plan an extra 30 minutes or so to arrival time to stop in at the local police station. I present myself and explain where I will be, what I’ll be doing, and the time window I’ll be doing it. I show them my FAA License, airspace authorizations, insurance and any contracts I have for the job. I tell them that “it’s inevitable that someone will call the police to complain about someone flying a drone, so you know in advance who it is and why.” I also get the name of the shift supervisor so I can tell any patrol that confronts me “I’ve already spoken with (name). If you contact (name) they’ll brief you”. I also have a red folder that contains all my paperwork. I keep this on my driver’s seat and can tell an approaching officer about it, and that it’s contents will answer any questions he may have.

I know I don’t have to do this, but with this practice in place I have yet to have a negative confrontation with law enforcement. In several instances, I’ve had officers show up just because they were curious and wanted to check it out. This has been in small jurisdictions, the larger municipalities had more important things to deal with. Although I don’t know for sure, I like to think this presents my operation, in their eyes, as a professional, planned operator who knows what he’s doing rather than some ding-dong just doing whatever he wants.

In short, I plan for law enforcement confrontation. I preempt and mitigate by checking in. I prepare by having the red folder and shift supervisor name. I build this into mission planning, just like pre-flight, costing, and packing my lunchbox. The practice has served me well.

 

[adm_geomatics]

There are many things to do to prepare for a job. From gaining required access permissions to airspace issues and insurance, to pre-flight planning and equipment prep, to time management and transportation....if you’re doing it right and not “winging it”....it’s a well scripted dance.

I always plan an extra 30 minutes or so to arrival time to stop in at the local police station. I present myself and explain where I will be, what I’ll be doing, and the time window I’ll be doing it. I show them my FAA License, airspace authorizations, insurance and any contracts I have for the job. I tell them that “it’s inevitable that someone will call the police to complain about someone flying a drone, so you know in advance who it is and why.” I also get the name of the shift supervisor so I can tell any patrol that confronts me “I’ve already spoken with (name). If you contact (name) they’ll brief you”. I also have a red folder that contains all my paperwork. I keep this on my driver’s seat and can tell an approaching officer about it, and that it’s contents will answer any questions he may have.

I know I don’t have to do this, but with this practice in place I have yet to have a negative confrontation with law enforcement. In several instances, I’ve had officers show up just because they were curious and wanted to check it out. This has been in small jurisdictions, the larger municipalities had more important things to deal with. Although I don’t know for sure, I like to think this presents my operation, in their eyes, as a professional, planned operator who knows what he’s doing rather than some ding-dong just doing whatever he wants.

In short, I plan for law enforcement confrontation. I preempt and mitigate by checking in. I prepare by having the red folder and shift supervisor name. I build this into mission planning, just like pre-flight, costing, and packing my lunchbox. The practice has served me well.

Wow I commend you for your diligence, but there is something to be said for presenting yourself professionally in the field. The key is being prepared if you are encountered. Have your license ready to pull out, your drone registration in the box, wear PPE and be enthusiastic about what you are doing. Pretty simple IMHO. Coming from my side of the fence this is a business and there is a break between diligence, time and profit.

 

[PatR]

That’s why the folks doing the $50.00 aerial shoots don’t last long...

 

[Fred Garvin]

....there is something to be said for presenting yourself professionally in the field...

Yep....look the part as well.

 

[LUIS MARTINEZ]

Can you get around these types of restrictions by parking on a street and launching your drone from your vehicle roof or bed of a pickup?

nope

 

[AtmosphericArts]

From THIS article dated August 12, 2019

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Source: New York City Website

Check out this excerpt from Administrative Code § 10-126 -

“Takeoffs and landings. It shall be unlawful for any person navigating an aircraft to take off or land, except in an emergency, at any place within the limits of the city other than places of landing designated by the department of transportation or the port of New York authority”. This is also known as the NYC "Avigation" law.

**********************************
Also as @LUIS MARTINEZ stated it is not normally best to argue with the police (MHO being a retired LEO also).

Did you have copies of the paperwork granting you permission to fly with you when you spoke to the LEOs ?

Also as @LUIS MARTINEZ stated I would go in person to file the paperwork and get the name and contact info of the person(s) you dealt with

I imagine a "busy Desk Sgt" isn't going to "waste his time" to try and track down your flight permission. Your flight "permission" was probably on the bottom of the totem pole of things he was concerned with.

I think I need to hire an attorney to advise on drone laws in NYC since I've heard several interpretations of both the NYC Website screenshot you shared and the law you cited. Although I live in NYC, most of my drone work is outside of the city, but when I do get work here I don't typically notify the police since that feels like a quick way to get a quick NO (at that point showing up anyway would be a very bad idea), and I'll have to tell my client I can't do it. For that reason I only fly from rooftops or private property and never for more than 30-45 minutes or with anything bigger than a Mavic. (Of course I always get the required permissions from ATC even though none of them have LAANC yet). I haven't been approached by police during commercial flights, but I flew hundreds of hours of FPV in Brooklyn parks and my encounters with police were always a simple Go Home.

The Avigation law is pretty clearly written and often cited as the reason drones are "illegal" according to the website notice, but where I have heard some debate is how it would turn out in court. This law was written about 70 years ago, and many sources say that it's not really enforceable in court since it was written with manned aircraft in mind. In fact, the law is still in effect yet NYC is implementing a formal UAS building inspection program following an unfortunate incident recently where somebody was killed by debris falling off a building. Not to mention the fact that helicopters were permitted to land on building roofs for decades (until one killed a bunch of people then they weren't).

I think what it ultimately comes down to in NYC is whether or not the operator is being reckless. As far as I know, drone operators were only ever arrested when they crashed into buildings.

PS: Since the law only restricts launches and landings, I suppose somebody could legally launch from across the river (or from a boat just outside of NY's borders), follow the drone, conduct a mission, and land where they started.

 

[BigAl07]

Can you get around these types of restrictions by parking on a street and launching your drone from your vehicle roof or bed of a pickup?

Not even close!

That like someone saying, "I launched/returned" from my hand so I the aircraft never launched/landed from your property so I'm legal."

 

[PhantomFandom]

I recently had a customer request some images of Philadelphia's City Hall (located in the dense city-center). I believe I did my due diligence in checking airspace (no restrictions) and filling out a form on the City of Philadelphia website (Commercial sUAS (Part 107) Flight Notification Form - Veoci (Public Form)) to allegedly notify their Emergency Services of a flight. My flight near city hall was going to consist of taking off from a nearby park, flying directly up to 400' (nobody below the drone at any point) and taking some pics, so I'm quite sure this wasn't breaking any FAA rules.

When I got to the location near City Hall, I noticed some police officers in the park. I didn't want anybody interfering with the flight once it was started, so I figured the right thing to do was to politely tell the cops that I already notified Emergency Services via the form (didn't have anybody reaching out to tell me that the location I requested wasn't ok) and I just wanted to make them aware/comfortable that I'd be conducting a FAA-compliant flight. Naturally they immediately told me that nobody is allowed to fly drones in that district, and I'd have to call their supervisor despite me telling them about the form. I immediately called the supervisor, who naturally also told me that I can't do it without permission from the city (despite me also telling him I did just that via the form). I got a strong vibe that the police officers and supervisor just didn't want to deal with me or check on my permissions. I ended up not being able to get the pictures from anywhere close to where the client requested. What kills me is that there's a strong chance I could have just conducted the three-minute mission without telling the officers and had no issues (or taken off from outside of their district and flown into their district).

I happen to live in NYC, which is one of the most drone-unfriendly places in the country, and stuff like this is a constant worry of mine as the drone laws here are very much in the gray area (don't get me started on drones and NYC...).

My questions:

• Does Law Enforcement only have the ability to restrict who takes off/lands from their districts rather than flying over their district? For instance I imagine they wouldn't have done anything if a helicopter or airplane overflew the City Hall, but I'm sure they wouldn't want a helicopter landing in Love Park just like they wouldn't allow me to take off from there.
• Do you guys typically always notify LE prior to starting a flight? (I can see this backfiring like it did in Philly, where I probably could have conducted the mission without problems if I hadn't drawn attention to myself.)
• How much should I argue with the officers if I believe I have the right to fly in a location? (I obviously wouldn't just take off in front of them if they tell me not to, but if there's a chance they're wrong I don't want to just walk away immediately and possibly lose a customer.)
• If there aren't any local laws explicitly banning drones, on what grounds can LE officers stop me if I'm not being reckless and adhering to FAA laws?
• On the spectrum of Asking Permission to Asking Forgiveness, where do you typically land if that makes sense?
• What would you have done in the Philly example above (before, during, and after the confrontation with LEOs)? Did they have the right to forbid me from flying?

Thanks in advance for your help with this!

I commend you for taking all the necessary steps to prepare for the flight as best you could. I would (and also have) done the same in the past when confronted by law enforcement. Be polite and move on, even if they are completely wrong!

I fly in Center City all the time and have many shots of City Hall. I assume you were taking off and landing in Love Park, and I have done that as well. Knowing the area well, here are my views on your flight:

• Completely legal to fly per FAA up to 400 feet, as long as there is no TFR in place at that time.
• Completely legal to take off and land on Philadelphia public property (which Love Park is) as long as there is no public event there at the time (parade, concert, etc).
• Unless you were doing this at the crack of dawn (literally) then the tough part is guaranteeing no flight over people. Love Park is a very busy tourist area and always full of people. Even if you were going straight up above your head, you could have people walking right by you. Those people would thus also be under your drone.
  My flights from Love Park were on cold days at dawn, when I knew and confirmed that there was no foot traffic. Since there are no real structures there to hover above, it is very difficult to find a stable location that guarantees no foot traffic below. There is the one parking garage stairway structure but it isn't very big and it's not in a convenient location for takeoff and landing. You also have the Visitor Center building which is bigger, but it is under construction so there are construction crews there much of the time.

So unless the police officers were knowledgeable enough to say you could not safely guarantee that no bystanders would be under your drone at any time, then they really had no basis upon which to shut you down. However, that was the wrong time to make a stand and potentially face getting detained. You did the right thing by moving on.

I'm not saying it would be easy, but the safest and most flexible way to get such a shot would be to somehow get access to the roof of one of the tall buildings directly adjacent. That way you can pick your time of day for best lighting, and fly without any chance of people directly below you.

Picture of City Hall that I took last year...

 

[MapMaker53]

Since the law only restricts launches and landings, I suppose somebody could legally launch from across the river (or from a boat just outside of NY's borders), follow the drone, conduct a mission, and land where they started.

Not really. You will quickly lose sight of your drone if flying from the NJ shoreline across the Hudson. Same from a boat anchored on the river unless the site you are shooting is right along the Manhattan shoreline. You can only fly within VLOS to be legal.

 

[LUIS MARTINEZ]

D

Not really. You will quickly lose sight of your drone if flying from the NJ shoreline across the Hudson. Same from a boat anchored on the river unless the site you are shooting is right along the Manhattan shoreline. You can only fly within VLOS to be legal.

Doesn't anyone ever just says NO?

 

[MapMaker53]

D

Doesn't anyone ever just says NO?

I could, but I sometimes like to communicate the reason and set myself up to be corrected.

 

[Airmapper]

I have a good friend who is a police officer and one day he started texting me telling me about a class he was in on the job concerning drones.

I haven't really grilled him on it's full contents yet but he did say he was familiarized with the Part 107 FAA ID card as a credential to recognize. I was very happy to know that officers were getting training on the subject in some form and told him as much. I doubt all departments are as diligent as his on educating their officers, but it does happen.

To be honest, I'm looking into this as a potential job and I'm scared to death by all this ambiguity and inconsistent rule-making. But if there ever was a field that suited me this is it.

 

[adm_geomatics]

I have a good friend who is a police officer and one day he started texting me telling me about a class he was in on the job concerning drones.

I haven't really grilled him on it's full contents yet but he did say he was familiarized with the Part 107 FAA ID card as a credential to recognize. I was very happy to know that officers were getting training on the subject in some form and told him as much. I doubt all departments are as diligent as his on educating their officers, but it does happen.

To be honest, I'm looking into this as a potential job and I'm scared to death by all this ambiguity and inconsistent rule-making. But if there ever was a field that suited me this is it.

That would be amazing if they would do that in my area! As is now I end up training them. I guess that's ok as long as I am getting a consulting fee...

 

[BigAl07]

I have a good friend who is a police officer and one day he started texting me telling me about a class he was in on the job concerning drones.

I haven't really grilled him on it's full contents yet but he did say he was familiarized with the Part 107 FAA ID card as a credential to recognize. I was very happy to know that officers were getting training on the subject in some form and told him as much. I doubt all departments are as diligent as his on educating their officers, but it does happen.

To be honest, I'm looking into this as a potential job and I'm scared to death by all this ambiguity and inconsistent rule-making. But if there ever was a field that suited me this is it.

Many departments across the country are "investing" in UAS programs and UAS Education and most (not all) are doing it correctly with the proper training. We've worked with over 3 dozen departments locally over the last 2 years and have more coming on board almost every few weeks.