Kobe Bryant's helicopter crash

[Philztoy]

it's a bit off topic although the NTSB seemed to be using DJI drones to film the location.

I know there are several very skilled high time helicopter pilots on this site and I(* was just looking for opinions and thoughts as to what happened.

I just saw a film clip that showed the helicopter getting completely engulfed in fog as it passed over a pinnacle. The last actions of the 8000 hour pilot were to pull collective and ascend followed by what seemed to be a left banking descent (I don't think that is the direction of a retreating blade stall on that helicopter at least it wouldn't be on mine),

It looks like he got caught in dense fog and disoriented. Pretty much certain death in a helicopter without instrument flying capability.

I was just trying to see what some of the more experienced rotorcraft pilots on here thought.

Tragic flight decision it seems.

 

[BigAl07]

Sadly it appears to be Flight into IMC resulting in Controlled Flight into Terrain (CFIT).

 

[PatR]

I tend to agree. Unless the helicopter had experienced a mechanical failure which necessitated an auto rotation the crash has all the appearances of a pilot that lacked training for IFR operations, or failed to properly use his instruments to maintain aircraft control and drove it into the ground. It’s really easy to mis control an aircraft in zero visibility if you aren’t using the instruments. You just can’t feel the attitude of the aircraft. The helicopter was certainly in forward flight when it hit the ground and bounced.

As the pilot had requested and obtained a Special VFR clearance he was aware of the weather conditions and should have only climbed through marginal VFR conditions upon departure into clear air. He should have never continued flight into IFR conditions after departure unless he had obtained and was operating under an IFR flight plan. Obtaining an IFR clearance assumes you are rated and current to fly IFR, and your aircraft is appropriately instrumented.

We can only hope a high G impact instantly killed the passengers, not the ensuing fire.

 

[Mavic Mac]

In the audio the ATC advised the pilot he was flowing too low

 

[2edgesword]

I had heard the company involved does not conduct IFR helicopter operations, VFR only. Does that sound right to the folks that have done corporate helicopter flying?

 

[SanCap]

In the audio the ATC advised the pilot he was flowing too low

AsI understand and heard it he was told he was to low for VFR flight following (not that he was to close to the ground for safe flight) which probably meant he could not be seen on radar as clearly as they needed him to be.

 

[PatR]

I had heard the company involved does not conduct IFR helicopter operations, VFR only. Does that sound right to the folks that have done corporate helicopter flying?

Companies providing VFR only helicopter operations are quite common. A helicopter is more difficult to safely fly in zero-zero weather conditions. The pilot has to be very well trained and the helicopter should possess as many automated flight control functions as possible. VFR ops carry much lower risks.

Our military helicopter pilots get stressed to the teats flying off of the dust and sand of the middle east deserts.

 

[R.Perry]

They had the ATC audio posted, the pilot was flying in IFR conditions but flying VFR. He had requested a higher altitude to get above the fog. ATC told the tops were over 3000 if I remember, so he would have needed a IFR clearance. To me this was gross pilot error, doesn't matter if it were fixed wing or helicopter. You don't fly through the fog VFR for any reason. Not only that area around Burbank has mountains all around it to the East. That's my one cent of opinion.

 

[SanCap]

They had the ATC audio posted, the pilot was flying in IFR conditions but flying VFR. He had requested a higher altitude to get above the fog. ATC told the tops were over 3000 if I remember, so he would have needed a IFR clearance. To me this was gross pilot error, doesn't matter if it were fixed wing or helicopter. You don't fly through the fog VFR for any reason. Not only that area around Burbank has mountains all around it to the East. That's my one cent of opinion.

He had a "Special VFR Clearance" which allows flights below VFR conditions. I stole this brief description of a Special VFR Clearance off the web. It was clearly stated that he did have the Special VFR Clearance. And in his case he was actually flying IFR (I Follow Roads).

"Special VFR clearances allow VFR pilots to land at surface E, class D, and some C and B airports when the field is IFR, but only if the pilot can maintain clear of clouds and the visibility is at least 1 SM. So, that's the official definition, but it's more complicated than that"

from the FAA regarding Special VFR.

FAI FSS - Special VFR Clearances

www.faa.gov

 

[LUIS MARTINEZ]

it's a bit off topic although the NTSB seemed to be using DJI drones to film the location.

I know there are several very skilled high time helicopter pilots on this site and I(* was just looking for opinions and thoughts as to what happened.

I just saw a film clip that showed the helicopter getting completely engulfed in fog as it passed over a pinnacle. The last actions of the 8000 hour pilot were to pull collective and ascend followed by what seemed to be a left banking descent (I don't think that is the direction of a retreating blade stall on that helicopter at least it wouldn't be on mine),

It looks like he got caught in dense fog and disoriented. Pretty much certain death in a helicopter without instrument flying capability.

I was just trying to see what some of the more experienced rotorcraft pilots on here thought.

Tragic flight decision it seems.

OT

 

[Mavic Mac]

AsI understand and heard it he was told he was to low for VFR flight following (not that he was to close to the ground for safe flight) which probably meant he could not be seen on radar as clearly as they needed him to be.

Yes you are correct

 

[Capt Binkley]

Everything is pointing to pilot error at this point. A bad case of get-there-itis led to bad decision making.

He had a "Special VFR Clearance" which allows flights below VFR conditions. I stole this brief description of a Special VFR Clearance off the web. It was clearly stated that he did have the Special VFR Clearance. And in his case he was actually flying IFR (I Follow Roads).

"Special VFR clearances allow VFR pilots to land at surface E, class D, and some C and B airports when the field is IFR, but only if the pilot can maintain clear of clouds and the visibility is at least 1 SM. So, that's the official definition, but it's more complicated than that"

from the FAA regarding Special VFR.

FAI FSS - Special VFR Clearances

www.faa.gov

SVFR is only practically effective at the airport. Once you get away from the airport where they are evaluating the weather conditions for the approval, the weather conditions change and you can find yourself in soup real fast. I have found myself flying in what ATC called as IFR and it was clearly VFR along my route. It can happen the other way around just as easy.

Every pilot with any reasonable amount of experience knows what happened and what the NTSB report is going to say. And we are all extremely frustrated that it has claimed several more lives. **** shame.

 

[SanCap]

Everything is pointing to pilot error at this point. A bad case of get-there-itis led to bad decision making.


SVFR is only practically effective at the airport. Once you get away from the airport where they are evaluating the weather conditions for the approval, the weather conditions change and you can find yourself in soup real fast. I have found myself flying in what ATC called as IFR and it was clearly VFR along my route. It can happen the other way around just as easy.

Every pilot with any reasonable amount of experience knows what happened and what the NTSB report is going to say. And we are all extremely frustrated that it has claimed several more lives. **** shame.

I agree, I also found it crazy that ATC was giving the pilot approvals to follow the highways and somewhat giving instructions to do so.

 

[2edgesword]

He had a "Special VFR Clearance" which allows flights below VFR conditions. I stole this brief description of a Special VFR Clearance off the web. It was clearly stated that he did have the Special VFR Clearance. And in his case he was actually flying IFR (I Follow Roads).

"Special VFR clearances allow VFR pilots to land at surface E, class D, and some C and B airports when the field is IFR, but only if the pilot can maintain clear of clouds and the visibility is at least 1 SM. So, that's the official definition, but it's more complicated than that"

from the FAA regarding Special VFR.

FAI FSS - Special VFR Clearances

www.faa.gov

If you're flying VFR and weather conditions worsen to IFR around the controlled airport where you're landing special VFR allows you to enter that airspace and land. Those IFR conditions might be very localize or you might have fog that reduces visibility but no definite ceiling or low ceiling but great visibility under the cloud layer.

 

[Philztoy]

The pilot here had 8000 hrs. The helicopter was 1991 but was probably well maintained.. I haven't heard whether there were any IFR insturments onboard. I don't think it had any IFR instruments or we would have heard about it or the pilot would have been able to use them to keep the aircraft under control. They supposedly hit the ground at about the Vne of the helicopter- 180 MPH, in a pretty rapid descent. The pilot did some pretty uncharacteristically radical assents and descents right before the crash, which looked like disorientation or a catastrophic failure of some type. He cleared one ridge by only 100ft so he could have hit something there. It seems like the GPS would have some ground height awareness on it. And it seems the pilot was familiar with the area... probably flying lower than normal trying to find the ground and then just losing spatial orientation.

My girlfriend who used to live in that area told me the fog conditions in those hills are apparently a daily occurance so it was a bit of a known condition. Maybe it was much worse that day.

I did see a video of the helicopter going over a ridge and it instantly dsappeared into the fog on the other side of the ridge. It looked pretty thick.
.

 

[BryanD]

The sad/ironic part to me is that I read that their destination was only 36 miles away from their departure point. Why fly to a destination only 36 miles away - especially in those weather conditions?

Very sad.

 

[BryanD]

Everything is pointing to pilot error at this point. A bad case of get-there-itis led to bad decision making.


SVFR is only practically effective at the airport. Once you get away from the airport where they are evaluating the weather conditions for the approval, the weather conditions change and you can find yourself in soup real fast. I have found myself flying in what ATC called as IFR and it was clearly VFR along my route. It can happen the other way around just as easy.

Every pilot with any reasonable amount of experience knows what happened and what the NTSB report is going to say. And we are all extremely frustrated that it has claimed several more lives. **** shame.

I don't have any experience that you are talking about. But I am assuming that you are saying that it will pretty much point to pilot error?

 

[SanCap]

The sad/ironic part to me is that I read that their destination was only 36 miles away from their departure point. Why fly to a destination only 36 miles away - especially in those weather conditions?

Very sad.

36 miles during certain times of the day in that location can take 3 hours by car. That is one of the reasons I do not live there and turn down work in that area.

 

[Dave Pitman]

I don't think it had any IFR instruments or we would have heard about it or the pilot would have been able to use them to keep the aircraft under control.

Sorry, not true. The AI, altimeter, VSI and airspeed indicator would have all been telling him all he needed to know. Unfortunately, it is common for pilots loosing visual cues to become disoriented and begin to trust the "seat of their pants" rather than the flight instruments leading to controlled flight into terrain. It's hard to believe that you wouldn't be able to tell you are descending, even accelerating downward, but it has unfortunately been proven over and over.

 

[R.Perry]

He had a "Special VFR Clearance" which allows flights below VFR conditions. I stole this brief description of a Special VFR Clearance off the web. It was clearly stated that he did have the Special VFR Clearance. And in his case he was actually flying IFR (I Follow Roads).

"Special VFR clearances allow VFR pilots to land at surface E, class D, and some C and B airports when the field is IFR, but only if the pilot can maintain clear of clouds and the visibility is at least 1 SM. So, that's the official definition, but it's more complicated than that"

from the FAA regarding Special VFR.

FAI FSS - Special VFR Clearances

www.faa.gov

I'm familiar with special VFR clearances, I have used them a few times. He didn't have the 1 mile visibly, he was flying in the fog.

I flew into Burbank on a special because the plane I was flying wasn't IFR rated, I dropped into Weller canyon, got clearance, the canyon was clear and the ceiling at Burbank was about 1100 feet. That is what a special VFR clearance is for. That pilot would not have flown into the side of a mountain if he had the 1 mile visibility. This was gross pilot error. If you listened to the ATC conversation he was told he was flying too low for radar, he was at 1400 feet, I assume his transponder was set at 1200 so many ATC controllers wouldn't had paid a great deal of attention to him.