Photos to find property boundary

[WildDoktor]

Hey all; I've got a guy who bought a lot in a city up in NorCal that burned to the ground (the whole city!) a couple years ago.

He contacted me asking if I could use my drone "for survey pictures". Of course I told him I'm not a licensed surveyer, so I can't offer a survey; but I can take photos and video.

As is fairly normal (in my experience, anyway), he wasn't quite sure exactly what he really needed. After talking to him, I looked up property lines in that neighborhood, and sure enough...there are no property lines around his new property.

From that info, I'm guessing that what he's *actually* trying to do is establish the boundaries for that plot.

So, if that's the case, my question for you guys is: What types of photos / videos should I take, that will be useful when he can hands them off to a surveyer (or whoever would officially re-establish those boundaries)?

It's just a small-ish, maybe .4 acre lot, in a full neighborhood (where there are no houses left standing due to the fire).

So...-90 gimbal tilt mapping pattern with lots of overlap? Perimeter photos with a POI in the middle-ish of the property? Something else entirely? Should I put some type of marker(s) down (like a blank CD) for reference for any reason?

I'm probably going to fly in 2 days. And I'll either use Litchi or the Go4 app with my Mavic Pro.

I'd appreciate your insight...especially if you create property boundaries from drone photos!

 

[Dave Pitman]

From that info, I'm guessing that what he's *actually* trying to do is establish the boundaries for that plot.

If that is the case, then you should advise your client to hire a licensed surveyor. If you get involved with anything to do with legal monuments, corners or boundaries and you are not working for a surveyor is where you will get into trouble. If you want to give your client some aerial photographs or video to look at, that should be fine.

 

[R.Perry]

You must be talking about Paradise, they wanted the entire town mapped. Then they found out how much it would cost. We figured two weeks to map the entire area, and that would be using three drones and pilots. I flew up their to get an idea of how much area we would need to map.
That is such a sad situation, it was once a beautiful town, I doubt if it will ever fully recover.
When we talked to them they said nothing about surveying, only mapping.
I totally agree with Dave, don't even attempt to find property lines without a surveyor. There is a surveyor out of Oroville I spoke with that sounded pretty reasonable, if interested PM me.

 

[WildDoktor]

Thanks for the replies guys! I absolutely know that I'm not a surveyor (I don't even play one on the internet!), and made that plain to him early on in our conversation. I was just curious what types of aerial photos a licensed surveyor would be able to use if they even used aerial photos.

As it is, my interpretation is that he's just wanting shots of a single property, so that's what I'll fly it as. Should take 30 minutes tops. Plus the 3hrs of travel time, of course! Oh, and yep, it's Paradise. Super sad. :-(

For grins I'll take perimeter photos pointing at a poi, then maybe 16 to 20 pointing straight down with some overlap (both with Litchi), then land and add an ND filter so I can take some video. Gonna be cloudless and 73f. Perfect!

 

[BigAl07]

I would stay very clear of even discussing "lines, boundaries, corners, monuments etc" in any capacity. Unless you're carrying some hefty E/O insurance I would just make him some pretty pictures and be done with it.

In regards to Aerial Photos & Surveyors . . . . Many companies in that line of work are indeed using UAS but they are mapping with precision equipment and going from verified reference points. RTK units and GCPs to verify along the way.

 

[Dave Pitman]

Many companies in that line of work are indeed using UAS but they are mapping with precision equipment and going from verified reference points. RTK units and GCPs to verify along the way.

And using all that gear, we still have nothing to do with monuments, corners, lines and boundaries We will target them in images if they are available.

Here in Washington, the practice of Photogrammetry does not require a license or registration like surveying or engineering. But that is different for each state. Something else to be cognizant of.

 

[MapMaker53]

A -90 gimbal tilt taking overlapping Litchi photos will probably work if you are only looking to supply an aerial photo upon which a survey drawing could be positioned over -- but simply for a general visual reference. Make it clear to the client that the aerial photo will not be georeferenced, and then leave it up to the surveyor to position it. I doubt the surveyor will put his stamp on that item, but it could be a useful visual for the client as a general reference to the location of the parcel in a sea of destruction.

Doing so is similar to what county governments do when they show property lines on their websites. It's simply a visual reference and not intended as any official survey. Note the tax map visual reference used by my county. The Block and Lot lines are clearly not super accurate when superimposed onto their background aerial, but you can get an idea of the lot(s) you own.

It sounds to me that your client may simply be looking for a way to see the parcel from the air, as I am sure it is difficult to know what you are looking at or where you are on the ground in a devastated area. Might not be looking for anything official.

 

[Fred Garvin]

...In regards to Aerial Photos & Surveyors . . . . Many companies in that line of work are indeed using UAS but they are mapping with precision equipment and going from verified reference points. RTK units and GCPs to verify along the way...

... and, they already have an in-house team that performs this.

 

[R.Perry]

This brings up a question. I have mapped a few places were I had the GCPs, Marked each corner and had Multivista align the mapping with the GCP markers. Never once calling it a survey, however the clients used the mapping for that purpose.
My dear wife said she felt that could open a real can of legal problems, meaning even though the mapping was never referred to as a survey, it could be argued that since the GCPs were marked and highlighted the intent was to create a survey.
What do you all think?

 

[Snowghost]

Well, if doing that again, put a disclaimer that the work is NOT a survey and should not be construed as one.

 

[AMann]

Good luck finding legal lot lines with any aerial photo- RTK’d or not. They must be tied in with a total station on the ground- but offering an aerial with a disclaimer that the lines are not a certified survey is a great idea and will help the property owner immensely. It’s a good start for a very good job potential! If you’re just starting out, also ask the owner if he would mind signing a release allowing you to use your photos of his property for reference and advertising use for your business.

 

[Enorda]

This brings up a question. I have mapped a few places were I had the GCPs, Marked each corner and had Multivista align the mapping with the GCP markers. Never once calling it a survey, however the clients used the mapping for that purpose.
My dear wife said she felt that could open a real can of legal problems, meaning even though the mapping was never referred to as a survey, it could be argued that since the GCPs were marked and highlighted the intent was to create a survey.
What do you all think?

@R.Perry It can open a ton of legal problems if they used it for boundaries. They could argue in court that they wanted a survey and you did the work, and regardless of you probably winning in the end if your contract specifies it is only imagery, you might have to fight it and you might not get your court fees back. For a couple hundred bucks it isn't worth it. Also in some states they surveyors have lobbied, I think it is North Carolina, who you can't legally provide maps either. There was a big discussion because they have a law saying any photography with metadata (GPS) or that were stitched together required a licensed surveyor to take. And if you are in NC, they can jail you and fine you to oblivion.

On other notes, a GCP, how did you align the GCP with GLONASS, GNSS and GPS? With your phone? then it isn't accurate to closer than 12 ft (really 3, but whatever), and without a known exact location from a surveyor, the surveyor can't really use it. And I don't believe it is legal to use landmarks like trees, as they generally aren't accurate enough.

Best bet, you Hire a surveyor to work with you, to produce a high quality aerial imagery map of the location, and the surveyor can mark the GCPs so they are accurate, and then the surveyor can use it. But without EXACT location of those GCPs by a surveyor, you can't know the precise exact location of the GCPs, making them unusable (according to surveyors I have spoken to). In surveys, good enough isn't good enough.

Well, if doing that again, put a disclaimer that the work is NOT a survey and should not be construed as one.

Some states still will fine you for that. Here's the article that a photographer and videographer was doing imagery, not even with the intent of using it for boundaries even, and he was hit with a threat of jail. He did have in one article I read state that it was only for imagery, and was not a survey, and the Board of Surveyors in NC didn't care. Here's the article, just because I am sure a few will disagree with me, but this isn't me, this is NC, and I live in MI. They tried to charge him with surveying without a license I believe.

Surveyors Wanted to Shut this Drone Photographer Down. Now, He's Fighting Back. [VIDEO]

Is drone mapping surveying without a license? NC drone photographer fights back after local Surveying Board threatens him with prosecution.

dronelife.com

To quote: "But a Board investigator told him that providing images with any metadata (information about GPS coordinates, elevation, or distance) or that stitching together images qualified as surveying and required a full-blown, state-issued license. "

Emphasis added by me.

Good luck, I don't agree with the NC Board, but there it is.

 

[Snowghost]

Wow. Pretty bogus. So you'd have to excise the Exif Metadata. Crazy.

 

[Enorda]

More than that, it covers any multiple image stitched together, so even an ortho map that no longer had exif would still be illegal in NC...

 

[R.Perry]

@R.Perry It can open a ton of legal problems if they used it for boundaries. They could argue in court that they wanted a survey and you did the work, and regardless of you probably winning in the end if your contract specifies it is only imagery, you might have to fight it and you might not get your court fees back. For a couple hundred bucks it isn't worth it. Also in some states they surveyors have lobbied, I think it is North Carolina, who you can't legally provide maps either. There was a big discussion because they have a law saying any photography with metadata (GPS) or that were stitched together required a licensed surveyor to take. And if you are in NC, they can jail you and fine you to oblivion.

On other notes, a GCP, how did you align the GCP with GLONASS, GNSS and GPS? With your phone? then it isn't accurate to closer than 12 ft (really 3, but whatever), and without a known exact location from a surveyor, the surveyor can't really use it. And I don't believe it is legal to use landmarks like trees, as they generally aren't accurate enough.

Best bet, you Hire a surveyor to work with you, to produce a high quality aerial imagery map of the location, and the surveyor can mark the GCPs so they are accurate, and then the surveyor can use it. But without EXACT location of those GCPs by a surveyor, you can't know the precise exact location of the GCPs, making them unusable (according to surveyors I have spoken to). In surveys, good enough isn't good enough.


Some states still will fine you for that. Here's the article that a photographer and videographer was doing imagery, not even with the intent of using it for boundaries even, and he was hit with a threat of jail. He did have in one article I read state that it was only for imagery, and was not a survey, and the Board of Surveyors in NC didn't care. Here's the article, just because I am sure a few will disagree with me, but this isn't me, this is NC, and I live in MI. They tried to charge him with surveying without a license I believe.

Surveyors Wanted to Shut this Drone Photographer Down. Now, He's Fighting Back. [VIDEO]

Is drone mapping surveying without a license? NC drone photographer fights back after local Surveying Board threatens him with prosecution.

dronelife.com

To quote: "But a Board investigator told him that providing images with any metadata (information about GPS coordinates, elevation, or distance) or that stitching together images qualified as surveying and required a full-blown, state-issued license. "

Emphasis added by me.

Good luck, I don't agree with the NC Board, but there it is.

First let me thank you for your response. I was placing my markers exactly where the surveyors placed theirs. During the UC Merced project almost all my mappings were tied to the survey markers, and I did work closing with the surveyors.

I live in California (one of the most liberal states in the union) and I have not had one complaint from any surveyors or survey companies..

Your point is well taken that since I am identifying markers that the mapping could be construed as a survey.
I need to do some research on California laws regarding this issue.

 

[R.Perry]

I called one of the surveyors I know pretty well.

Here is the California law:

8775. Use of titles – “photogrammetrist” and “photogrammetric surveyor” No person shall use the title or any abbreviation of the title photogrammetrist or photogrammetric surveyor unless he or she holds registration as a civil engineer or licensed land surveyor, or unless he or she is licensed as a photogrammetric surveyor.

8775.1. Photogrammetric services Persons meeting the requirements of this article may engage in and perform all photogrammetric services germane to this chapter, either as individuals, employees, or as independent contractors; provided, however, that the field surveys to be done are performed by registered civil engineers or licensed land surveyors, and in the preparation of any topographic map which contains the delineation of property corners or a property boundary or boundaries the work is certified or attested to by a registered civil engineer or land surveyor.

Basically his and my understanding is any mapping with property boundaries. The survey must have been done by a licensed surveyor, and the mapping should not make any reference to boundaries even though they may be visible.

 

[BigAl07]

More than that, it covers any multiple image stitched together, so even an ortho map that no longer had exif would still be illegal in NC...

That particular statement has not yet been processed through the courts. It's literally "in process" right now. I'm friends with the UAS Operator who The North Carolina Board of Examiners for Engineers and Surveyors is currently trying to sue out of existence. Participants are currently being deposed and we hope so hear something concrete about this one way or another by the end of March.

I spoke with him last week and COVID has put everything way behind but we are seeing small steps forward and fully expecting this to turn out in our favor unless The North Carolina Board of Examiners for Engineers and Surveyors have a rabbit up their sleeve.

For those asking about a "Disclaimer" I fully agree they are needed but they only deter those who aren't willing to pursue the matter. If there is a problem and an attorney gets involved they will bust right through that disclaimer and go after you for providing DATA that could be considered Survey work. Hopefully this court case mentioned above will set a good precedence for all of us.

 

[WildDoktor]

Does that mean that every map that DroneDeploy has ever made which was provided by a non-licensed surveyor is then subject to litigation?

 

[BigAl07]

Does that mean that every map that DroneDeploy has ever made which was provided by a non-licensed surveyor is then subject to litigation?

That depends on which side of the Court room you're sitting on and what your local laws allow or disallow. In NC we still aren't sure but hopefully will know one way or another in just a few weeks.

The bad news is, if we lose this in North Carolina it will set a very bad precedence going forward that other areas may reference.

 

[R.Perry]

Does that mean that every map that DroneDeploy has ever made which was provided by a non-licensed surveyor is then subject to litigation?

I think that is a stretch. First of all Drone Deploy never implies that their mappings are survey quality, or meet survey standards so as long as that is well understood by the client if they used the data from the mapping for say volume reports, CAD downloads, distance measurements and so on they are using them with the understanding that the GCPs may be close but can not be considered completely accurate or to survey standards.

With that said, and my wife pointed out. There are always plenty of hungry lawyers that will jump on the bandwagon if they think they can make a buck.