Question when registering with FAA

[adm_geomatics]

We ask questions to clear up confusion so I am sorry if you don't like teaching people. Fact is that most cities and/or regions have FAA officials and they are the people that you are most likely to be dealing with on an ongoing basis. Correct a law enforcement officer is one thing because they may not understand or have been misinformed, but to get into a discussion like that directly with FAA personnel is a different matter. The other part of confusion is that I have said the same thing twice and you answered it differently each time.

chasco said:
From a conversation I had with our local official he mentioned that even though you are flying "recreationally" that being 107 registered and licensed you're are still subject to those regulations. ???

phaedrus said:
Yes, which is exactly what I said above

So which is it? The other conflict that I keep seeing is that when you register recreationally it is more of a pilot registration number than it is an individual aircraft number. Part 107 registrations are specific to each aircraft whereas a recreational registration can be applied to the recreational user's fleet as desired. If you are flying at night "recreationally" and run into a situation where you have to provide your information then your are a Part 107 pilot with a Part 107 registered aircraft. That's simple.

That said, I do agree with the fly at will. I am just asking simple questions that could come up for a variety of reasons.

 

[Phaedrus]

It is both. As a Part 107 pilot you can declare you are going to follow the 107 rules prior to the start of the flight. You can fly a recreational flight under the 107 rules if you want to.

OR

You can declare the flight as being conducted under the Section 349 rules if you so desire. Being a Part 107 pilot does not eliminate this option.
As Fred noted above you might want to do this if you do not have a 107.29 daylight waiver and want to fly a recreational flight at night.

People get lost thinking that Part 107 is akin to a commercial license, it isn't really. It is a certificate that allows commercial use, but does not require you to ONLY fly a commercial flight.

I answered the question the same each time. The confusion lies in not understanding that you can fly recreationally under 107 assuming you have the certificate. But you are not REQUIRED to do so. As such, anyone saying that as a Part 107 pilot you MUST always fly under 107 is flat wrong. You can choose to fly under the Section 349 rules, even with a sUAS registered under the 107 registration.

Declare which rule set you are choosing to conduct the flight under before take off and go have fun.

 

[TopDogAviation]

I guess the response from the FAA was not as clear as I thought.

A Part 107 certified pilot may fly their Part 107 registered sUAS under the recreational rules per the FAA. Choose to believe whatever "local officials" may say, the FAA says this is the case.

You choose which rules you are going to fly under, then fly. It is not any more complicated than that.

That is typical of any government enforcement. They (and their attorneys that proof read and edit final copies) paint regulations in gray, not black and white. Reason being, it requires interpretation when applied to different circumstances. That is why asking local agents of the same agency, all they say is, “Be safe. Operate abiding by the regulations. (CFAR 25, 61, 91, 107, 135... whichever applies at the time.) However, the FINAL interpretation is never up to the operator. It is up to the agent and legal team activated to investigate. Whether investigating reckless endangerment of life (a common “catchall”, CFAR 91.13. “ (a) Aircraft operations for the purpose of air navigation. No person may operate an aircraft in a careless or reckless manner so as to endanger the life or property of another.) or post accident investigation. This I why most aviation managers keep a book like this:
Aviation Law: Cases And Materials Aviation Law: Cases And Materials: Robert M. Jarvis, James T. Crouse, James R. Fox, Gregory S. Walden: 9781594600302: Amazon.com: Books
on their office shelf. Read it sometime when you want to choke to death on 1,000 pages of stereo instructions. It is however worth the $110 to see how others got violated and fined by the FAA. In 32 years of flying... Go conservative with interpretation to be safe, legal, avoid violations and fines. Be more liberal with interpretation when you want to make $ but charge a lot for your risk. Fines are HUGE but lawyers charge more than the fines.

 

[Phaedrus]

Way overthinking it. Part 107 pilots can follow either rules as long as the intent is declared prior to take off.

The reality is that once Section 349 for recreational sUAS flying is fully implemented there will be very little operational differences between the two.

 

[HawkView]

I believe that the confusion starts with the misconception that Part 107 was created to fly for "compensation", or "furtherance of a business", and such. It is exactly the opposite.

The FAA considers all drone flights to fall under the Part 107 regulations. However, because of lobbying by groups (primarily the AMA), Congress required the FAA to carve out a "hobby" exemption, and that exemption is the root of all the confusion ever since.

 

[Phaedrus]

I explain it to people that Part 107 are the main body of rules governing sUAS operations. Section 349 (and 336 before it) carved out an exemption to Part 107 if you meet certain requirements.

Part 107 simply allows flights for compensation and/or business interest. It also allows recreational flying.

Section 349 exempts you from the requirements of 107 if you meet 8 criteria, but prohibits flying for business interests/compensation.

It has never seemed confusing to me, but I've been deeply involved with this for some time.

 

[TopDogAviation]

Way overthinking it. Part 107 pilots can follow either rules as long as the intent is declared prior to take off.

The reality is that once Section 349 for recreational sUAS flying is fully implemented there will be very little operational differences between the two.

Ooooh, I see. Declared to WHO??? THAT is how and where it gets gray.
1) You take off from a strip mall parking lot. You take 50 pictures of ONE store in the strip. A bird tangles with a rotor and the remaining rotors carry the drone through the plate glass window. The bill is $1,000. Do you report it as an accident as required by 107? Or do you say, “That wasn’t a reportable accident. I declared it was a “pleasure flight” before take off.” Can you sell any of those 50 pictures???
2) You take off (after declaring to yourself) on a pleasure flight. You take the best photo or video of YOUR LIFE. You enter it in a contest and it wins the Grand Prize. You are offered $10,000 for the rights to the work. Do you take the money? Maybe I do overthink things. A college degree in Aviation and 32 years of working as a pilot and manager dealing with the FAA will do that. You do things your way. Good luck.

 

[Phaedrus]

Nothing gray about it. You DECIDE, for yourself, in your own brain, all by yourself the intent of the flight.

Posit all the hypotheticals you care to. It is up to each operator to make the determination and act accordingly from there. And obviously, if you have a contract to do work, that sort of makes any after the fact declarations of a hobby flight per your hypothetical a bit of a stretch.

As to your second hypothetical, the FAA has addressed that as well. If you were flying for fun and at some time later you are offered money for an image, no problem.

Sorry, I'm done playing the "what if" game. It is very clear to people who don't want to spend their days arguing how many drones can dance on the head of a pin how this works. At the end of the day there is a certain degree of honesty involved. So if you have no scruples, then I guess anything goes.

 

[TopDogAviation]

Nothing gray about it. You DECIDE, for yourself, in your own brain, all by yourself the intent of the flight.

Posit all the hypotheticals you care to. It is up to each operator to make the determination and act accordingly from there. And obviously, if you have a contract to do work, that sort of makes any after the fact declarations of a hobby flight per your hypothetical a bit of a stretch.

As to your second hypothetical, the FAA has addressed that as well. If you were flying for fun and at some time later you are offered money for an image, no problem.

Sorry, I'm done playing the "what if" game. It is very clear to people who don't want to spend their days arguing how many drones can dance on the head of a pin how this works. At the end of the day there is a certain degree of honesty involved. So if you have no scruples, then I guess anything goes.

I didn’t ask who decides... my question to you was, “To who do you declare your intent?” That and the obvious, that your intent can change after takeoff. I believe that this forum exists to help others. There could be a young drone operator looking for hints and advice. My intent is to help them make informed choices. You obviously want others to share your opinion. I can’t help but notice that you don’t post your legal name. You choose to post as Phaedrus. Well then, I guess I might be Socrates. You also have quite a few posts on here. Obviously, you spend more time on the internet than in the air. On the other hand... Orange County CA, with a Plato based handle... is this Harrison Ford??? Hey, how did landing on the taxiway at John Wayne, Orange County Airport work out for you?

 

[PatR]

A smart drone operator would maintain a log book for all their flying. There will be a time in the not too distant future it will become required of commercial pilots. Recreational pilots may well find keeping a flight log useful for tracking flight hours, something insurance companies and commercial businesses want to know.

In that log book you have the opportunity to declare if a flight was recreational or commercial. If you are a commercial operator and the FAA or police officer demands to see your records you will have a means of separating types of flights, which could go a long way in preventing violation notices and seized equipment. Note that for a commercial operator the aircraft telemetry files are part of your records. Should an agency demand to see the telemetry it's a whole lot better if you have a log book that matches the telemetry. Otherwise you'll have no way of remembering if a flight had been commercial or recreational.

Should a recreational operartor get called out, they would provide an appearence of being much more responsible than a cavalier operator if they could produce a log book showing the when, where, conditions, and aircraft state for the recorded flights. It could also make denying you were someone violating the rules if you could establish your flight times and locations with a written record.

At this time we need declare type of flight to nobody, unless and until we get called out by an official agency. Should that happen it’s better to have a record than not.

 

[adm_geomatics]

A smart drone operator would maintain a log book for all their flying. There will be a time in the not too distant future it will become required of commercial pilots. Recreational pilots may well find keeping a flight log useful for tracking flight hours, something insurance companies and commercial businesses want to know.

In that log book you have the opportunity to declare if a flight was recreational or commercial. If you are a commercial operator and the FAA or police officer demands to see your records you will have a means of separating types of flights, which could go a long way in preventing violation notices and seized equipment. Note that for a commercial operator the aircraft telemetry files are part of your records. Should an agency demand to see the telemetry it's a whole lot better if you have a log book that matches the telemetry. Otherwise you'll have no way of remembering if a flight had been commercial or recreational.

Should a recreational operartor get called out, they would provide an appearence of being much more responsible than a cavalier operator if they could produce a log book showing the when, where, conditions, and aircraft state for the recorded flights. It could also make denying you were someone violating the rules if you could establish your flight times and locations with a written record.

At this time we need declare type of flight to nobody, unless and until we get called out by an official agency. Should that happen it’s better to have a record than not.

This can already be done with software so I don't know why anyone, including recreational flyers wouldn't do it. Telemetry is gathered from the planet and from the drone so all it takes it the right piece or collection of software and all of our flights are documented to the gill, probably with more information than you would ever need.

 

[PatR]

I’m one that chooses to delete telemetry files periodically. I won’t use equipment that auto transmits telemetry to the maker. If telemetry serves no other function than to possibly be used as evidence against me there is no purpose in retaining it.

Having flown RC for over 45 years, a certificated pilot since 1988, and military drones from 2005 to 2017, I pretty much became accustomed to using paper logs. What’s in them is what the law requires and what I want in them. No more, no less.

 

[adm_geomatics]

I’m one that chooses to delete telemetry files periodically. I won’t use equipment that auto transmits telemetry to the maker. If telemetry serves no other function than to possibly be used as evidence against me there is no purpose in retaining it.

Having flown RC for over 45 years, a certificated pilot since 1988, and military drones from 2005 to 2017, I pretty much became accustomed to using paper logs. What’s in them is what the law requires and what I want in them. No more, no less.

RC for over 20 years here and it's totally to each his own. I definitely agree that you don't want to save more than you have to, but unfortunately now that the aircraft is a budget line item the information from it is covered on our project warranty periods. It is usually more of a benefit in legal situations than not so we choose to use that documentation to our advantage. I purge logs as well, but the telemetry that I use for documentation is the pretty simple essentials like home coordinate, flight time, battery stats, weather and geo-fenced project data.